Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 30

= May 30 =

Finnish exonym
In Finnish, "Russia" is Venäjä. There are similar names in Estonian and Võro, but apart from those, almost every other language seems to use something derived from "Россия". What is the etymology of the Finnish word? L ANTZY T ALK 05:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Our List of country name etymologies says Estonian Vene or Venemaa and Finnish Venäjä are derived from the name of the ancient people Venedes. Võro has been traditionally considered a dialect of Estonian. The list is fairly interesting, as a whole. --Магьосник (talk) 11:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Very interesting question, BTW, following the link, I learned a lot about these Venedi people. I didn't even know they had exited! --Lgriot (talk) 02:59, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, considering they were probably absorbed by the surrounding Slav population, they probably never exited at all, and their descendants may still be there. -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:21, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the Italian name Giorgio
According to the page on the Italian alphabet, the letter combination  has the sound /dʒ/ (like the English letter j). In the Italian name Giorgio, does either occurrance of the letter  function as a vowel besides being the marker for the preceding consonant's pronunciation? Which of the following is correct: or otherwise? I require this for correctly transliterating the name into Hebrew (with apologies for my rusty IPA). -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * /dʒor'dʒo/
 * /dʒor'dʒIo/
 * /dʒIor'dʒIo/
 * It's /ʤoːrˌʤo/, according to the Italian wiktionary. The stress throws me off. I don't speak Italian, but my Romance ear tells me to pronounce it with stress on the first syllable. All I'm seeing is secondary stress on the second :( Rimush (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I found no mention of this in the article Italian phonology. The book Teach Yourself Italian, page 76, says that "nouns and adjectives ending in -cia and -gia drop the i before the ending -e of the plural, provided the i is not stressed".  Thus, la guancia (the cheek), la pioggia (the rain), and la spiaggia (the shore) become le guance, le piogge, and le spiagge.  However, la farmacia (the chemist's) and la bugia (the lie) become le farmacie and le bugie.  There are a few exceptions, such as la valigia (the suitcase), which becomes le valigie.
 * The name Giorgio has two syllables, of which the first one is stressed. You can hear it pronounced at http://www.forvo.com/search/giorgio/. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The correct IPA is . Italian Wiktionary had it wrong, but I've corrected it now. +Angr 15:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, thanks, folks! This has been a revelation. All these years before I paid any attention to the Italian alphabet's use of the Roman letters familiar to me from my US upbringing, I've been pronouncing this name jeeYORjee-o :-/ -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You horrible, wicked woman. :) That, and disgusticisms like "Jee-o-vah-nee" and "Jee-a-CO-mo" really make me puke.  There's a prominent Australian footballer who glories in the surname Prestigiacomo.  That's long enough even in the correct pronunciation, the way he pronounces it (presti-JA-como), but all the commentators really make a meal of it - "presti-jee-a-CO-mo".  Cringe and whimper. --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   13:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And don't get me started on "ar-PEZH-ee-o", which not only involves pronouncing the silent "i" but also involves pronouncing the soft "g" as if it were French instead of Italian. +Angr 14:02, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ... and Ruggiero, leggiero, strisciando, and many other words. --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   10:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I once ordered bruschetta in an Italian restaurant in the United States. The waitress had no clue what I was talking about until I pointed to the item on the menu, and she corrected me: "Oh, you mean brshedda." Then again, I've heard Germans complain about the sour Shianti they drank in Shiasso, and a number of German speaking Swiss talk about Tchicago on the shores of Lake Mitchigan. ---Sluzzelin talk  10:58, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And I've ordered a bottle of Chianti Classico at an Italian restaurant in the U.S. and had the waiter "correct" my pronunciation to "clah-SEE-koh". Deor (talk) 11:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I can top that: my high school English teacher (!) "corrected" my pronunciation of viscount to make it rhyme with discount. +Angr 12:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The one and only time I ever went into a Starbucks, I ordered a "Grande", pronouncing the first syllable with an "ah" vowel, as one would if it were the Italian word it is and not the French feminine adjective. I was looked at quizzically, and asked to repeat my order.  I did, got the same looks, then the penny dropped.  "Oh, you must mean gron-day, sir".  I said, "No, I think I mean grahn-day".  He replied, "We call it gron-day here, sir".  I had my coffee and left, vowing never to return.  (The coffee wasn't that great anyway, not by Melbourne standards.)
 * A more recent linguistico-culinary experience was of ordering a pizza. My interest alighted on their Capricciosa, which I have always pronounced kap-ri-cho-sa.  I said what I wanted, again was asked to repeat my order, and was told "Oh, you must mean kap-ri-ko-sa".  "Whatever", I grumbled, being too famished to fight.  Next day I reported this conversation to my work colleagues, expecting their support, but to a person they all sided with the pizza shop person.  None of them had ever heard anyone say kap-ri-cho-sa, but they were all very familiar with kap-ri-ko-sas.  I groaned and went into my office, closing the door tightly in order to stifle my sobs.  --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   20:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Has anyone for whom English is a foreign language ever pronounced "George" as [dʒiɔrˈdʒi] or "Georgia" as [dʒiɔrˈdʒiə], with extra syllables?
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 16:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I for one. The name of the U.S. state of Georgia has been adopted by Bulgarian (and by some other languages - you can see the interwiki links of the article) as Джорджия, Dzhordzhiya - with one extra syllable. --Магьосник (talk) 22:13, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In Polish, Georgia is pronounced [ˈd͡ʐɔrd͡ʐʲa] – two syllables, but the second "j" sound is clearly palatalized. It only applies to the U.S. state of course, not the country, whose name is pronounced ['gruzja]. — Kpalion(talk) 09:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

British equivalent to M-W.com
Is there an online dictionary for British English that is like Merriam-Webster in that it has the option to click to hear an audio recording of the pronunciation of a word? M-W often lists the British spelling in phonetic code but the recording will only be the North American pronunciation. Thanks. I have a reference question (talk) 11:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You could try dictionary.cambridge.org. Gabbe (talk) 13:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * forvo.com might help, it is a dictionary of words recorded by native speakers. There are about 60k English words, though how many are recorded by British English speakers I don't know.  The recordings are labelled with where the speaker comes from. Tinfoilcat (talk) 18:20, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * For the record, there's also www.oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com which is essentially the same. Gabbe (talk) 10:36, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese "ri" hiragana
Hi. Take a look at these two versions of the hiragana "ri" character:

http://japaneselanguageculturefood.com/graphics/hiragana/japanese-language-hiragana-ri.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Japanese_Hiragana_kyokashotai_RI.png/100px-Japanese_Hiragana_kyokashotai_RI.png

One is a continuous line while the other is a broken line. Are these two forms completely equivalent and equally acceptable? If one is learning to write Japanese characters, which style is preferable in handwriting? 86.184.26.232 (talk) 12:45, 30 May 2010 (UTC).


 * Yes, they're completely equivalent and equally acceptable. The disconnected way of writing it might be slightly more legible when writing with a pencil or pen. Paul Davidson (talk) 14:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As Paul says. Also, bear in mind that if you do decide to go for the disconnected version, make sure that the second part is visibly longer, or your りs could get mixed up with your いs. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "your りs could get mixed up with your いs." Yes, that's exactly what's happening! Thanks everyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.27.65 (talk) 01:36, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * They are not completely equivalent and equally acceptable. In writing, it is extremely rare to see the connected variant, and to see the disconnected variant in computer text implies a more "hand-written" style. It's hard to find an equivalent in English (perhaps lowercase "g" with it's alternating styles? nobody writes a curly g anymore, do they?), but the logic is easy to understand: it is easier to manufacture solid connected characters (き、さ、り、こ、い） for use in a printing press/printer, especially when clarity is important, but writing style dictates that all of these characters are written disconnected, the only traditional exception being when the letters are written stylized and the "ink" travels between parts. 210.165.30.169 (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation into Chinese
Can a user please translate the following into Chinese: "Jewish Religious Observance by the Jews of Kaifeng China". Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 18:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 中国凯丰犹太人之犹太教遵守 Zhongguo Kaifeng Youtairen zhi youtaijiao zunshou. This is a literal translation. A better sounding translation leaves out China and Jewish: 凯丰犹太人之宗教遵守 Kaifeng Youtairen zhi Zongjiao Zunshou "Religious Observance of the Jews of Kaifeng." Steewi (talk) 00:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You can replace 遵守 zunshou 'observance' with the perhaps more idiomatic 仪式 yishi 'ritual'. Steewi (talk) 00:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you.Simonschaim (talk) 13:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The correct characters for Kaifeng should be 开封, referring to the city. As in " 开封犹太人之宗教仪式 " --Kvasir (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * For more information on this topic, see Kaifeng Jews and History of the Jews in China. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 23:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Might just add that modern vernacular Chinese would use 的, not 之. As in "开封犹太人的宗教仪式". "遵守" is the verb "to obey". The corresponding noun for "what they observe" might be 守则 ("rules to be obeyed") or 规定 ("regulations"). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:21, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2010 (UTC)