Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 November 18

= November 18 =

Origins of the word prat
I have tried to discover how the word prat which is slang for fool came into existance. There was one Prat who played a part in English history. It was Richard Prat, who was one of the garrison at the siege of Leeds Castle in October 1321. After taking possession of the castle, King Edward II ordered him to be hanged from the battlements along with 12 others. Could he be the source for the word?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * According to, the verb "to prattle" meaning to talk foolishly has been attested as early as 1525, and seems to come from the middle low german "pratelen" meaning to chatter. The archaic term prate is another form of prattle, and has the same meaning, it dates from 1375,  None of these predate your proposed usage, but they all have cognates in non-english languages, indicating that they likely came from Middle German words, and not from the coincidental name Richard Prat.  This sounds like one of those Thomas Crapper-type folk etymologies.   -- Jayron  32  07:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It was just an idea when I came upon the name Richard Prat for an article I was working on.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:32, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * A quick Google has several slang dictionaries and Etymology Online giving an original meaning of "buttocks". My memory from school days is that it wasn't the sort of word you could use in front of your parents. Alansplodge (talk) 13:15, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's possible poor martyred Richard Prat's actual name was Richard le Prat!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The surname 'Pratt' seems to come "from a pre 7th century word "praett" meaning a trick; and as such was probably a nickname for a magician or conjuror." Alansplodge (talk) 15:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * OED has prat for an idiot or fool under the same entry and so derived from its meaning of "a buttock" (cited to 1567 as pedlars' cant). DuncanHill (talk) 14:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * See also pratfall. Alansplodge (talk) 15:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I can see my speculation was far off the mark. I find it intersting that prat as slang for fool originally meant a buttock from 1567 pedlar's cant. I have read about thieves' cant in Alsatia, a section of London where the highwaymen and cut-purses found sanctuary from the law in the 17th century. I wasn't aware of pedlar's cant. I'm sorry I wasted everybody's time about unfortunate Richard Prat. Oh well, at least he enjoyed his 15 minutes worth of fame here!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:32, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

English grammar: Tense in reported speech
What tense do you use when reporting what another person said that is (still) true but not considered an eternal truth? Which one (if any) in each of the pairs below is the correct/idiomatic/more standard one?


 * 1) The boss said we are going to have our annual meeting in Hawaii.
 * 2) The boss said we were going to have our annual meeting in Hawaii. (We still are.)


 * 1) The lady I met yesterday said her name is Cindy.
 * 2) The lady I met yesterday said her name was Cindy.


 * 1) The lady I met yesterday told me that this town has a history of over 200 years.
 * 2) The lady I met yesterday told me that this town had a history of over 200 years.

Thanks. --173.49.14.187 (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * 2 is more standard and more correct (in English, though not in some other languages). Eliko (talk) 16:47, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The second of each pair would be the better to indicate a shade of doubt, that what they said isn't necessarily true (or if it was then, it might not be anymore). Lexicografía (talk) 16:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that 2 is more common, and therefore more standard but I think both are correct. As Lexicografía says 2 gives no doubt that it is still the case. I can imagine a case where it may changeThe boss said we were going to have our annual meeting in Hawaii. Unfortunately, following the budget cuts it looks likely that it will now be held on site -- Q Chris (talk) 16:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You've probably meant: "1 gives no doubt that it is still the case". Eliko (talk) 17:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * See our article Indirect speech. Eliko (talk) 17:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It depends on the focus of what you're talking about at the time. For example, in the last pair, if you and a friend are talking about the town and arguing about how old it is, the first ("the lady told me this town has...") would make more sense. On the other hand, if you're recounting your conversation retrospectively, the second would make more sense. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's where contractions can be used to "cheat" a bit on some of these items: "The lady I met yesterday said her name's Cindy." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:39, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that the contraction -'s is never used to mean was. It means either is or has.  Marco polo (talk) 20:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * While that seems to be true for the most part, curiously "said her name is Cindy" is questionable to my ears, but "said her name's Cindy" is perfectly fine. Voikya (talk) 21:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's probably because of the awkward tense shift. If you're already in the past ("she said...") then it's odd to the ears to switch to the present ("...her name is..."). "She said her name's Cindy" sounds wrong to me, because I'd expect "was", not "is" there, and 's doesn't take "was". Lexicografía (talk) 21:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Rjanag. Marco polo (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Essentially the same question arises w.r.t. (2) "I thought he lived in Shelbyville" vs. (1) "...lives...". In the above question and this one, I'd use 2 in careful writing, and like to think I would also (but probably wouldn't really) in informal speech.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 20:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * When I hear the words "I thought he lived in Shelbyville", that gives me the impression that the speaker has a reason to believe that he was wrong, or at least that it is possible that he was wrong. Is that impression correct, or is it due to the fact that my mother tongue is German? -- Irene1949 (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're correct; if someone says "I thought he lived in Shelbyville" that means that there is another open possibility (perhaps he lived in Macon?), and his living there is probably in the past as well (he may not live in either place anymore). If you wanted to say something about where he presently lives I'd use both present tenses, or something like "I would have thought that he lives..." although that one's a bit awkward as well. Lexicografía (talk) 21:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Or (2) "I thought embarazada meant 'embarrassed'" vs. (1) "...means...": again, I'd use 2, even (I think) in speech.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 05:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The third selection sounds odd to me. I would have said The lady I met yesterday told me that this town has had a history of over 200 years. (though of over 200 years sounds awkward, too).   Corvus cornix  talk  18:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Names in Jokes
When Germans tell jokes about a little boy, he is usually called "Fritzchen" or "Klein Fritzchen" (= little Fritz). When they tell jokes about a little girl, she is usually called "Klein Erna" (= little Erna). When English speakers tell jokes about little children, which names do they use? -- Irene1949 (talk) 20:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know that there's a "go-to" joke name in English, but if I had to pick one it'd be Johnny (or little Johnny). Probably Susie or something for girls. Again, though, there isn't really a "universal" joke name, but these seem to be used fairly often, at least in my experience. Alexius  Horatius  20:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Little Johnnie is common enough. It developed strength in Australia during the recent Prime Ministership of John Howard as it fitted the image his opponents like to give him. Little Mary is not so common, but probably fits the definition. HiLo48 (talk) 20:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, "little Johnnie". It fed the popular misconception that John Howard is short of stature.  He's not particularly tall, but he's still taller than his onetime opponent Bob Hawke, which would surprise most people.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Bobby or Billy might work for boys as well, but I'm sticking with Johnny for "most common" (in the US, at least). Alexius  Horatius  20:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (or "Johnnie" - same thing.) Alexius  Horatius  20:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Little Johnnie in Australia, that reminds me of some standard names of politicians in German jokes. For a very unpopular politician, we often use "George Bush" (the junior) or Erich Honecker (one of the last leaders of the German Democratic Republic). For a very stupid politician, Helmut Kohl is quite common. When I was young, in the late 1960s, it used to be Heinrich Lübke, a president of the Federal Republic of Germany; especially there were jokes about his allegedly poor English (most of them were made up). -- Irene1949 (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Little Johnny would definitely be the most common here in the US. Tommy, Bobby, Billy, et cetera are also used. I'd think Susie or Jane would be common for girls. Lexicografía (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your answers. -- Irene1949 (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)