Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 November 19

= November 19 =

Blazing Saddles en español
I recently acquired an old second-hand DVD of Blazing Saddles, and was intrigued to discover that one of the audio tracks is a rather raspy-sounding Iberian Spanish dub. I have no idea when this dub was made, but is it possible that it was contemporary with the film, putting it at the tail-end of the Franco era? Could a film like Blazing Saddles have been shown in Francoist Spain? If not, why would an American film be dubbed by Iberian speakers rather than Latin American speakers? L ANTZY T ALK 02:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * For the European market? Many Hollywood movies and TV shows seem to have separate French dubs for Quebec and France which can be quite different in translating names of characters and locations, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * This site makes me think that the dubbing was contemporary with the original movie. That would match the bad sound quality (also mentioned here) Besides, this other site (in fine) reports that, on one hand, Brooks likes to look after script translations, and on the other hand, he praised Spanish dubbing. Pallida  Mors  13:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links. Apart from the sound quality, it seems like a pretty good dub. L ANTZY T ALK 15:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

What does 'พ่อมึงตาย' mean?
An anon IP has just added this (พ่อมึงตาย) to the James Blunt article (diff here). I thought about reverting as vandalism, but I should really find out what it says first. I'll not even try to guess at the script... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It's Thai. My initial google search shows it might be a song, band, or movie. I don't speak Thai, so I can't comment with authority. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Hum... I've just tried the Google Translate 'detect language' tool. It says its Thai (as you say) for 'Amึong father died'. Curioser and curiouser... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I found a page that states the following: "พ่อมึงตาย phÔO mueng taay = Your father be dead! (curse)." So, basically, it's vandalism. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've reverted it. Vandals are strange... (and thanks for the link. I can now curse, and discuss politics, in Thai!) AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Scripture notation
Is there a name for the chapter and verse notation of Biblical scripture, e.g. Psalm 23:4? Or is it just "chapter and verse notation"? Dismas |(talk) 03:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just called "chapter and verse". See Chapters and verses of the Bible.  -- Jayron  32  05:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There are three dimensions levels (book, chapter, and verse), although each "chapter" in the book of Psalms is a psalm, and some books (the Book of Obadiah, the Second Epistle of John, the Third Epistle of John, and the Epistle of Jude) have only one chapter each.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 05:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * [I am revising my reply of 05:56, by changing "dimensions" to "levels". The three levels are in one dimension.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 15:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)]
 * Wikipedia has an article "Bible citation".—Wavelength (talk) 05:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I thought there might be a specific term for it.  Religions seem to have a lot of words for various things.  Dismas |(talk) 19:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "aunt"
In the northern United States, it is often pronounced to rhyme with "ant". But what is the Canadian pronunciation? L ANTZY T ALK 07:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, in my experience, it is pronounced "ant" in much of the midwest and southern U.S. In New England and parts of New York, it is pronounced "ahnt", rhyming with flaunt and taunt.  -- Jayron  32  08:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In Ireland it's also pronounced ant.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably depends on the location in Canada. I've heard it pronounced both ways in normal conversation - though I strongly suspect "ant" is the most common way of saying it. I've heard pasta pronounced differently in normal conversation too.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also drama. My dad who had Irish parents promounced it as drama, whereas most Americans pronounced it drahma.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In London, it's a homophone with "aren't". Alansplodge (talk) 09:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it, though? To my Yankee ear, "aren't" and "aunt" are completely different in the mouth of an English speaker (by which I mean an English speaker): "Aren't" rhymes with "can't", while "aunt" rhymes with "haunt". Or am I mistaken? L ANTZY T ALK 09:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Alansplodge is right. In the north of England, it is generally pronounced with a short "a" as "ant", but in the south it is generally pronounced as "aren't" - but perhaps with a slightly shorter vowel sound than that would suggest. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm a native British English speaker from the south of England and I would certainly pronounce "aren't" and "aunt" exactly the same. --Viennese Waltz 09:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh. So "aunt" doesn't rhyme with "haunt"? Or am I imagining a distinction where none currently exists? (These sounds certainly rhyme for me, but I thought the English distinguished them.) L ANTZY T ALK 09:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Aunt" certainly doesn't rhyme with "haunt" to me (native Brit Eng speaker, originally from N England but now mainly in S). Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you sufficiently familiar with the IPA to transcribe your pronunciation of "aunt" and "haunt"? It would be interesting to see where I've been going wrong. L ANTZY T ALK 11:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not an IPA expert but I think ɑːnt and hɔːnt (corrected) are how I would pronounce themt (I'm close to RP). I to would pronounce "aren't" and "aunt" the same. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * [θ] is the first consonant of thin, I suppose you meant something else.—Emil J. 14:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've corrected it now! -- Q Chris (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, when I say it's pronounced "ant" in the northern US, that's a bit of a generalization. A significant minority of non-southern Americans say "awnt", including me. I suspect that American "awnt"-ers are growing in number, but we're still vastly outnumbered by the "ant"-ers. I'm familiar with the "paesta"/"draema" phenomenon from watching Canadian TV, but the "aunt" thing seems different from that. Just look at the spelling. Why should it ever have been pronounced like "ant"? It's bizarre. Was it some sort of holdover from an archaic pronunciation predating the current "au" orthography? L ANTZY T ALK 09:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone with access to the OED might be able to shed some light on the matter. L ANTZY T ALK 09:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it possible you perceived the "haunt" association due to the spelling?
 * In any case OED says "aunt" is pronounced /ɑːnt/ while "aren't" is pronounced /'ɑːnt/, so effectively the same. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I genuinely, phonically perceive a difference. As I said, I pronounce the sounds identically, being an American of the flat, midwestern variety, but I perceive a striking difference in the speech of English people. But considering that the distinction is utterly foreign to me, it's quite possible that I'm confused and off-base. Maybe I'm mentally reversing and then over-generalizing the cot-caught merger. L ANTZY T ALK 10:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe you've been learning your English accent from Austin Powers ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Blame Canada. (Anyway, it's better than Dick van Dyke.) L ANTZY T ALK 11:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

In Dirty Beasts, Roald Dahl, who was Welsh of Norwegian Parents, wrote of an American aunt who was eaten by an anteater. HiLo48 (talk) 10:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Antzy's "striking difference" here in England is down to the Trap-bath split. The "Aren't" homophone or near-homophone is basically southern, the "Ant" northern.  A northerner myself, I use the latter.   Ka renjc 11:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Karenjc, that's not the difference I meant. That's a more obvious difference. I meant that I perceived a difference between "not" (/nɒt/) and "naught" (/nɔːt/), and I assumed that this was also the difference between "can't" and "aunt". I guess I was wrong about that. L ANTZY T ALK 11:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK. Yes, the /nɒt/ vs. /nɔːt/ difference is pretty obvious in most English variants of British English, (though locals where I now live pronounce the latter closer to /nɔərt/).  For me, "haunt" would be /hɔːnt/ and "aunt" /ænt/.  Ka renjc 15:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. Before this thread, I had no idea that anybody in Britain pronounced the word "aunt" /ænt/. I thought it was a North American weirdness. L ANTZY T ALK 00:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless I missed it, no Canadians have answered yet, so...it is pronounced "ant", at least by everyone I know. There could be regional/age differences, but I don't remember ever hearing anyone pronouncing it the other way. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Adam. Actually, what motivated my original question was hearing Jon Lajoie pronounce the word "awnt" in his song Cold Blooded Christmas. I was surprised, because I thought Canadians said "ant". Might Lajoie's pronunciation be a Quebec-influenced thing, or an AAVE-influenced thing? L ANTZY T ALK 12:05, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I don't know. Maybe that's a French-Canadian pronunciation, or maybe it's just because of the unusual way he's singing in the song (I mean, he sounds like an Anglophone singing oddly on purpose). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm also Canadian (born and raised in SE Ontario). I pronounce it as "ant" and would only use "awnt" or "ahnt" for effect. If I heard someone pronounce it that way and they didn't appear to be having fun, I would assume they were from New England or UK (or from the mid-Atlantic. Matt Deres (talk) 14:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Here are some relevant links.
 * aunt pronunciation: How to pronounce aunt in English
 * Pronunciation of aunt - how to pronounce aunt correctly.
 * Aunt - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
 * aunt - Wiktionary
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Boston is certainly in the northern United States, and in Boston and most other parts of New England, aunt is pronounced "ahnt" /ɑːnt/. For eastern New England speakers who are non-rhotic, this pronunciation is more or less identical to aren't, as in southern England. (Though from Boston south, aren't tends to end up with a slightly different vowel, namely /aːnt/).  The "ahnt" /ɑːnt/ pronunciation prevails even among rhotic New England speakers (those who pronounce 'r' after vowels at the ends of words and before consonants). As for Canada, I would not be surprised if there is regional variation. Quebec English is sometimes closer to the English of New England than it is to the English of Ontario. Likewise the Maritimes.  Marco polo (talk) 16:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There is Boston, Lincolnshire, in the United Kingdom. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The word aunt is mentioned six times at Phonological history of English short A.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Some Southerners pronounce it like ain't.  Corvus cornix  talk  18:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It's also likely that even for Americans and Canadians who pronounce it as "ant", the first vowel is slightly different (/æ/ vs. /a/, I guess). I don't remember exactly how to describe it phonetically, but people in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New York, and probably elsehwere, definitely use /æ/ a lot more than people like me, from Ontario. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * For some Americans there is such a distinction. WHere I live now in North Carolina, there is absolutely no distinction in pronounciation between the picnic pest and the sister of one's parents.  They are pronounced identically.  -- Jayron  32  21:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Adam, you may have noticed the Northern cities vowel shift, as a result of which Ontarian speech is nearer General American than is the speech of their immediate neighbors in the northern United States. L ANTZY T ALK 00:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha! Yes, I didn't realize we had an article about that. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Vis-a-vis this discussion, how did McMahon get to be pronounced in the US/Canada as if it were spelt McMan? --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   23:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It may be the same mechanism that causes some Americans to pronounce "Graham" like "graem" rather than "grayem". As for why, my hypothesis is that it's some sort of hypercorrection. To me, "Grayem" and "McMayen" remind me of a broad Gomer Pyle-ish pronunciation of words like "damn" (day-um) and "can" (cay-un). I grew up saying "Gram Chapman", and still have a hard time pronouncing the name correctly. L ANTZY T ALK 00:05, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there's the "mahn" pronunciation, which applies with Mahoney ("mahn-ee"; I know it's also sometimes rendered "ma-hone-ee"). --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   02:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

"Data store" or "datastore"?
Is it "data store" or "datastore"? Sample context. --Mortense (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Being relatively new jargon, I think you can still choose for yourself. I'm sure some companies selling associated products will be pushing one and/or the other, but it's hardly settled yet. HiLo48 (talk) 22:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd go with "datastore", to emphasize that it's not an intelligence boutique. Also, it's more distinctive and shows up better in searches, whereas "data store" is more ambiguous. Google reveals that both forms are current, but "datastore" seems to have the edge. L ANTZY T ALK 00:00, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * These links may be of interest.
 * http://www.onelook.com/?w=data+store&ls=a
 * http://www.onelook.com/?w=datastore&ls=a
 * http://www.onelook.com/?w=data+set&ls=a
 * http://www.onelook.com/?w=dataset&ls=a
 * —Wavelength (talk) 02:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)