Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 November 20

= November 20 =

Within an inch of its life
How old is the phrase "bnce imply that eaten to within an inch of its life"? Does its existence imply that at that time, the idea of health and injury being a scalar quantity, with some number of "inches" between perfect health and death, wasn't particularly foreign? Neon Merlin  02:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, inch is being used metaphorically here. An inch is a small measurement, so to be "inches" from something or within "an inch" of something is to be very close to it.  The phrase is also often attested as "inches from death", with roughly the same meaning.  -- Jayron  32  02:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The earliest usage of the phrase cited in the OED comes from The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts (1726): "I will drub, you Dog, within an Inch of your Life, and that Inch too." Antiquary (talk) 10:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

the N word
how is the word  NIGGER pronounced not to sound racist i mean Nigga to a friend and not NIGGER as a black cottonfield slave, i dont want to osund rude. Btw im not american. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.136.93.213 (talk • contribs)


 * The short answer is "You cannot". Its use, as a term of endearment, among the African American community is specific to that community.  It has nothing to do with whether or not the final "r" is pronounced or not, if you are not a member of the African American community, you will likely be perceived as highly insulting and rude if you use that term, regardless of your intent.  Even if you have an African-American friend, it would be best for the friendship just to avoid it altogether.  -- Jayron  32  04:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I know a person of East Asian descent who insists on using this particular word several times a day, especially to refer to people with which he is familiar, apparently under the impression that it makes him appear more trendy or masculine in some way. Needless to say, he comes across as a colossal asshole to the uninitiated, and I'm waiting for the day that he says it in front of the wrong person. Simply don't even use the word -- as with other pejorative terms, it's not worth risking your property or well-being when there are plenty of alternatives. Xenon54 (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It should never, ever be used under any circumstances.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Since it actually is used under plenty of circumstances, that response is not very helpful, Jeanne! Any reader who doesn't understand the dynamics, sub-culture or whatever (I don't!) might notice that you are not describing reality, and disregard you as part of some establishment trying to enforce speech patterns on "normal guys". They might very well decide to try when they can "get away" with it and end up in very, very awkward situations. Thankfully, others before you have answered the question in more elaborate ways. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 11:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's best to avoid it. I'm white and went to a school that was 67% Hispanic and 24% black. The Hispanics used "nigga" as well, and I was called a "nigga" by both the African-Americans and the Hispanics, but I thought it best to avoid using it even if I was friendly with most of the people in that school. I used "son" or "B" instead :P Rimush (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically, you can't go wrong by avoiding using it. I'm reminded of an old-old SNL bit with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor, to which the punchline was "Dead Honky!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Language in 14th century England
Which language did the nobles use in early 14th century England: French or English? This is specifically for the year 1321 as I need to know in order to add the information to a biographical article on an English noblewoman. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * A long article here about French and English after the conquest. "The difficult question of the extent to which English and French were used in England after the Norman Conquest is not to be lightly answered." Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * By the 14th century, it would seem very likely that all English families (except recent immigrants and Celtic remnants) had English as a native language, though the ability to speak French was certainly still a widespread status symbol among the upper classes (a necessity in the legal profession). AnonMoos (talk) 12:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Clarification needed. A C14 English noblewoman might have spoken Middle English at home, Anglo-Norman in her other daily life, and may well have instructed her lawyer to speak in Law French--Shirt58 (talk) 13:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * That doesn't contradict anything I said (assuming by "other daily life" you mean interacting with members of the upper class outside her immediate family). AnonMoos (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * This result from Google Books says that the language of the English court in the 12th Century was Parisian French. English became the language of law courts and Parliament in 1362. Geoffrey Chaucer was writing in English for the London elite from 1369. This page discusses the change in the status of English and quotes William of Nassington in the "mid to late 14th Century"...
 * “Bothe lered and lewed, olde and yonge, / Alle understonden english tonge.” Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What do lered and lewed mean? I'm too lazy to look them up. Rimush (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Lered = "learned"; lewed = "common" or unschooled. Marco polo (talk) 20:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * So is it correct to assume that an English noblewoman would have used French to address the marshal of Queen consort Isabella and not the new-fangled English?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * My recollection is that Isabella spoke little if any English, and that English did not become the usual language of conversation at court until the reign of her son Edward III. Of course it is also relevant that Isabella herself was French.  But what is this about a marshal?  It isn't really correct that English was new-fangled, it's more that the upper crust of the aristocracy was mainly derived from the Normans who came over with William the Conquerer. Looie496 (talk) 18:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't see that page in Google Books, but Parisian French in 12th century England? Really? Why would anyone be speaking Parisian French in England at that time? Also, Anglo-Norman and "Law French" are the same thing, so they wouldn't be distinguished as separate languages. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The Google Books link is to Old English to Standard English: a course book in language variation By Dennis Freeborn, MacMillan Press (UK) or University of Ottowa Press (Can / USA) 1992. See also the WP article on Law French (first para): "increasingly influenced by Parisian French and, later, English." Alansplodge (talk) 09:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Parisian French gained a certain ascendancy in the royal court of England from the mid-12th century even though much of the English nobility spoke the Norman-derived Anglo-Norman, which as you say was still the language of the law courts. The reason for this change was the succession of the House of Plantagenet to the English throne.  The roots of the Plantagenets were in the French regions of Maine and Anjou. They ruled the Angevin Empire including extensive possessions in the southwest of France.  The prestige dialect of French by this time was the Parisian dialect, which would also have served as a kind of lingua franca among the various regions of France (including Normandy) from which the Angevin nobility were derived.  Marco polo (talk) 20:47, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I didn't think Parisian became a prestige dialect that early. Neat! Adam Bishop (talk) 23:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If Queen Isabella spoke little English we can conclude she conversed with her marshal in French, hence it's likely the noblewoman would have issued orders to the marshal in French.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I doubt that any noblewoman would be issuing orders to the Marshal. Nor would any nobleman, for that matter.  The Lord Marshal of England was pretty much primus inter pares.   Corvus cornix  talk  20:39, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It was not the Lord Marshal of England she was talking to but rather the marshal of Queen Isabella's military escort. Besides, this event occurred in the reign of Edward II when the Lords Ordainers, led by Thomas, 2nd Earl of Lancaster ran the show rather than the King! Thomas of Brotherton, the Lord Marshal at the time was a strong opponent of the King's favourites, the Despensers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding Parisian French, Isabella was the daughter of Philip the Fair, the king of France, so she would probably have been brought up speaking Parisian French, and probably had attendants who spoke it as well. Looie496 (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * True. I think it is safe to say that the English noblewoman in question would have likely spoken French, especially as she had been born in Ireland to a Norman family.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Japanese characters help
What are the Japanese characters seen on the ground floor of the building in File:Wowow_head_office.jpg this image?

I can make out "2 Building" (2ビル) but I can't tell what the preceding three characters are WhisperToMe (talk) 12:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the character immediately before the 2 is 第 (dai), the character used to form ordinal numbers. So 第2ビル is "second building". I can't make out the first two characters either (especially not the second one, which just looks like a black square). —Angr (talk) 12:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * After a google search I think I found it - The characters seem to be 虎屋第2ビル - Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 13:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Tiger Store, Second Building"? —Angr (talk) 14:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Here's a realtor lending out office space in that same building: http://www.office-navi.jp/office/02013629/1/, and it's indeed 虎屋第2ビル - compare the picture as well, it's the same building. TomorrowTime (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, seems like the building is named for the owner, an old confectioner based in Akasaka, "Toraya confectionery". We don't have an article, but there is a ja.wiki article here: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/とらや_(東京都港区赤坂) and here's the company's homepage: http://www.toraya-group.co.jp/main.html TomorrowTime (talk) 14:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I just started the English stub of Toraya Confectionery WhisperToMe (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is the en page of Toraya. BTW, Wowow is not in the Toraya building anymore. They moved to the 21st floor in this building. Oda Mari (talk) 16:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's right, Oda Mari. I just marked the old Toraya Building as the former HQ WhisperToMe (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian help
File:BulgarianAirParis.JPG needs a description in Bulgarian The English is "Bulgaria Air office" What is this in Bulgarian? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Bulgaria Air" is "България Ер" (from http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%95%D1%80). I would guess that the general word for "office" is "бюро", but of course they may use a different word in this sense. --ColinFine (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright - I wonder how that would be conjugated in Bulgarian, though... WhisperToMe (talk) 01:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The Bulgarian language famously doesn't have noun case distinctions (as opposed to most other Slavic languages, which have at least 3 or 4). AnonMoos (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That is very interesting! So, does this mean it would be written "България Ер бюро"? WhisperToMe (talk) 02:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Having lost the declension does not mean that it can use nouns in adjectival sense, like English :). I think that the correct translation is "бюро на България Ер", (meaning "bureau of Bulgaria Air") also attested in their own web site. No such user (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, that works. Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 11:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Latin "Niger" and "niger"
Inspired by a previous question on this page, I searched in Wikipedia via the Search box, and I found the following articles, which I am listing in the same order in which I found them listed. If I were to pronounce these according to the rules of Classical Latin pronunciation which I learned, then the word "Niger" or "niger" would sound almost identical to a common racial or racist term. How do people today customarily pronounce "Niger" or "niger" in each of those expressions? —Wavelength (talk) 17:02, 20 November 2010 (UTC) [I am revising my message.—Wavelength (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)]
 * Aspergillus niger, Pescennius Niger, Ralph Niger, Lapis Niger, Streptanthus niger, S. niger, Helleborus niger, Hyposmocoma niger, Lathyrus niger, Tachypodoiulus niger, Roger Niger, Niger Innis, Niger Vallis, A. niger, Chiloglanis niger, H. niger, O. niger, Sextius Niger, L. niger, E. niger, Neolamprologus niger, Oxydoras niger. (If I had continued, I probably would have found many more.)
 * I think most English speakers pronounce Latin taxonomic names according to the traditional English pronunciation of Latin rather than the Classical pronunciation, e.g. the second word Homo sapiens is pronounced rather than . Thus niger in the taxonomic names listed above is almost certainly pronounced, same as the country Niger. It probably is for the other names you listed as well. If you do have occasion to use the Classical pronunciation of niger and want to avoid sounding like you're using the N-word, it helps to pronounce the second syllable with a clear  and (especially if you speak a nonrhotic accent of English) a clear Italianate . —Angr (talk) 17:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've said this on this desk before, but I'll say it again: the African-American students at my school pronounced Niger as the N-word, and the infamous "Nigger river" was a source of annoyance for our global history teachers. Rimush (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Angr. Insults and obscenities are things which many people consciously avoid in speaking, listening, reading, and writing.  (http://www.multilingualbible.com/ephesians/5-4.htm; http://www.multilingualbible.com/colossians/3-8.htm)  On the other hand, it is desirable that other people recognize when a different language is being used, and not misinterpret expressions outside the context of that language.  However, sometimes people make allowance for such misinterpretation.  (http://www.multilingualbible.com/1_corinthians/8-9.htm)
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * True enough, but in this case at least I don't think the pronunciation arose as a conscious attempt to avoid a pronunciation sounding like nigger. The anglicized pronunciation of Latin is centuries old; English speakers were already pronouncing the Latin word niger  at a time when there would have been no taboo at all against the word nigger. —Angr (talk) 16:45, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point. In fact this is just an example of the usual English rule that if you have a single consonant letter between two vowel letters, the first vowel is pronounced "long", but if you have two consonant letters, the first vowel is "short".
 * In The Mikado, W. S. Gilbert rhymes Niger with tiger. The original libretto, embarrassingly enough, has two instances of the other word under discussion as well. --Trovatore (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Why embarrassing? As Angr points out, in those days there was no taboo on the use of the word nigger.  It's not for us to be embarrassed by the word choices of earlier generations based on current 21st century taboos.  Not quite of the same generation, but an aunt of mine (who died last year aged 93) had a much loved black dog for about 15 years, whose name was Nigger.  This was back in the 60s, I guess.  Nobody ever thought there was anything remotely wrong or inappropriate about that, or if they did, they never said so.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's embarrassing if you're fond of G&S, and are trying to explain to someone that it's actually making fun of many of these contemporary values, and then you hit a straight use of that sort of thing. Or if you want to put on a production involving young people, and you've handed out copies of the songs without having changed it yet and discussed it with them first. Or if you're singing along. But yes, it's not embarrassing if you're just analysing it as a piece of dead history. 86.166.40.2 (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "an awful lot of black dogs were called Nigger" -- and we even have an article on it: Nigger (dog). (With reference to The Dam Busters (film)). BrainyBabe (talk) 11:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Most pronunciations that I've heard have the Niger River and the Republic of Niger pronounced differently. The country's name is French, the river's name is Anglicized.   Corvus cornix  talk  20:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Although those two geographical names were not included in what I had in mind with my original question, apparently it is one or both of those names being pronounced at http://www.forvo.com/search-en/Niger/.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Margin of excellence
What is the exact meaning of "margin of excellence"? Where does this expression come from? 93.172.111.201 (talk) 17:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a euphemism for programs at educational institutions that are supported by charitable donations, as opposed to standard institutional funds. At West Point, for example, Margin of Excellence needs are described as those projects and programs, above the core requirements, that significantly enhance the cadet experience, directly and/or indirectly, but for which appropriated funds (government money) are not available or are inappropriate. These cover the entire spectrum of the cadet experience at West Point: academic, physical, military, religious, community service and other "leaders of character" building activities. Looie496 (talk) 18:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Spanish flap
I'm having trouble producing the alveolar flap right before a consonant or at the end of a word, my tendency is to pronounce an 'r' in this position as the ENglish middle/frontal r or (worse) the French uvular 'r'. ANy tips on how to make this sound more "Spanish"? 24.92.78.167 (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * touch the tip and a bit more of your tongue to the ridge at the top of your mouth where the deep part meets the part towards the outside of your mouthHemanetwork (talk) 21:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you give an example of a word you're having trouble with? I assume you mean stuff like pero? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Your IP address suggests that you are in Wisconsin. If you are a native speaker of American English, then you already have this sound in your repertoire.  To pronounce the Spanish word pero, pronounce as if it were written "petto" in English.  Or, pronounce the English word petal but without the final "l".  The vowels won't be exactly right, but the "r" will be the alveolar flap that you want. Marco polo (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

OOPS! I meant consonant, not vowel (I can do vowels pretty well). Sorry for the mix up! But the end of the word part is still true. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 23:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the flap in those positions is harder for speakers of American English. Hemanetwork's comment above is correct.  What I do—and my pronunciation of flaps in those positions may not be perfect—is I do an aborted trilled /r/.  I think it more or less works.  Initiate a trilled /r/ but stop as soon as your tongue has made contact with your alveolar ridge.  Marco polo (talk) 01:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean that it's easier for speakers of American English (and of course Australian English)? It seems to me that it would be most difficult for speakers from England and Ireland whose consonantal repertoire contains no comparable sound, even allophonically. But for Scots it should be exceptionally easy, given that their R is more or less the same as in the Spanish "pero". L ANTZY T ALK 23:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Lantzy, I meant that the flap is harder for Americans in those positions than intervocalically, not harder for Americans than for English people. Marco polo (talk) 15:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)