Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 November 25

= November 25 =

sociopath- pronunciation
Is "sociopath" pronounced differently in the UK vs the US? I heard someone from the UK say something like "soshiopath", but I couldn't tell if it was a mistake. 149.169.218.35 (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

How do YOU pronounce it? Are you an American? Are you damaging the image of other Americans, displaying US centrism by assuming that all other readers here will all be Americans and see things from the same perspective as you? DO put the question in a broader, more global context please. HiLo48 (talk) 00:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't be such an asshole. My first sentence asked if there was a difference in the pronunciation in the US and the UK. My second sentence gave an example of the pronunciation as I had heard it from someone in the UK. Neither is from any "perspective". 149.169.218.35 (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

If it's that second consonant sound you're referring to, that's exactly how I pronounce it. Without knowing what the other pronunciation you're referring to is, it's a meaningless question. (Unless, of course, you're an American, and Americans pronounce it differently, and you assume that your audience is all Americans, and.....etc.) HiLo48 (talk) 00:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I (US) would personally pronounce it sow-see-oh-path, but if I heard either sow-show-path or sow-shee-oh-path, neither one would strike me as particularly remarkable or unusual. --Trovatore (talk) 00:59, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think SOH see oh path is the most common pronunciation in the United States, but I've certainly heard SOH shee oh path from speakers of American English (and not just from sociopaths). Marco polo (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Most South Africans - just to throw in another perspective - say "so-she-oh-path". Roger (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec) Me neither. There's a spectrum of possibilities with these sorts of words, e.g. for "sexual", I sometimes say sek-shoo-əl, and sometimes seks-you-əl. It probably depends on my audience. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   01:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * However, no American would say "SEKS yoo ul". In American English, it is always "SEK shoo ul".  Marco polo (talk) 01:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I recall Bill Clinton saying "sexshull"--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The "sh" pronunciation is a reflection of what linguists call yod coalescence. It's something that a lot of non-UK speakers do, but to varying degrees based on where they're from, how formal the situation is and what class background they're from. Steewi (talk) 02:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Edited for link Steewi (talk) 02:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't Wikipedia wonderful, I've been a yod-dropper since I was a kid, and only now found out. I think that amongst the younger generations of working-class Londoners, the correct pronunciation is SOW-shia-paff. AndyTheGrump (talk)


 * And isn't English wonderful. :) In the US we would typically say soh-see-oh-path, soh-see-ah-luh-gee... and soh-shull-ist. And we would typically say sek-shoo-ull, although that and some other words with ua in the final syllable I've heard pronounced as if it were an ia instead: sek-shull, and men-stray-shun, for example. There's also the pronunciation of "issue", which we would typically say ish-you, but I've also heard as iss-you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I can cope with most American pronunciation, even when they mispronounce the name of my city, Melbourne, but please don't make me ever again have to hear about nukulah bombs. HiLo48 (talk) 06:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlHEJtflcmo&t=0m9s /me runs and hides -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 10:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Please, please, never again make us hear about "noo-killer" weapons, as George "Dubble-yew" Bush says it. I blame his inability to verbally distinguish between "terrorists" and "tourists" for the dreadful treatment of passengers at US airports. Roger (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Foreigners mispronouncing Melbourne - that's nothing. At least //mel-born// has logical merit.  But what about all the Australians who seem to be unaware there's an l (el) in the name of their own country.  Bill Lawry, Eddie McGuire, Pauline Hanson and Anthony Albanese head a very long list. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   09:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Melbourne suggests it's pronounced mel-bun. But isn't that something to do with dropping the "r"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:32, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The "bourne" part is pronounced /bən/ ("b'n"); the "US pronunciation" seems to be /bɔːrn/ ("borrrrn"); "bun" is pronounced /bʌn/.
 * To me the "natural" pronunciation of "-bourne" suggested by its spelling would be /bɔːn/ ("born") (or /bɔːrn/, "borrrrn" if rhotic). It wouldn't suggest /bʌn/ ("bun")... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * How would you pronounce words like "earn", "burn", "turn", etc.? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There are no vowels in the pronunciation of the second syllable of Melbourne. It might as well be spelt Melbn. HiLo48 (talk) 10:46, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Nor apparently an "r". Or is that correct? Do you pronounce earn, burn and turn like "un", "bun" and "tun"? Or like "ern", "bern" and "tern"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep. You can forget the "r" too. And it's the latter pronunciations for earn, burn and turn. HiLo48 (talk) 11:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, so unless an American wants to start dropping all the r's, the right way for me to say it would be "Melb'rn". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, wait... are you saying the r IS enunciated in earn, burn and turn? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Australian English is non-rhotic, but that doesn't mean the R doesn't affect the sound of the word. The presence of the R in 'earn', 'turn' and 'burn' indicates how the preceding vowel is sounded – the absence of a rhoticised R does not make the vowels change from ɜ: (the 'burn' vowel) to a (the 'bun' vowel in AusE). 87.114.101.69 (talk) 14:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I usually hear it as "Mel-bin" when Aussies say it. The oddest bit of Aussie english (to my "Sarf Effrikin" ear) I ever heard was the late Steve Irwin talking about "woild rawk worlibbies", it took me quite a while to realise he was referring to "wild rock wallabys". Roger (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm still trying to figure out how "no" comes out like "ner". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Me too. That seems to be something young people do.  They seem unaware that it's impossible to make an "o" sound with the lips spread as if they were saying "eee". A lot of young females particularly have a smile permanently cemented onto their face - god knows why.  So "No, I don't have a home phone" comes out as "Ner, I dern't have a herm phern".  Weird.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Jack, that could be a reversion to the old Australian outback tradition of not opening your lips too wide in case the flies get in. HiLo48 (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe. Then there's the other camp, who say "o" as if it were "oi" or "eye" - "Noi, I din't have a hime phine".  But in among the ner-ers and the ni-ers and the noi-ers are still plenty of no-ers.  We inhabit an ark of righteousness, sailing on an ercean  oicean  icean ocean of mispronunciations. :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   22:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the "ner" explanation. Makes sense. Now, about the interjection, "OI!" or however it's spelled: Is that a twisted form of "HI!" ? At this point I must mention the ads for Foster's beer, which we see in the USA and which I suspect you don't see in Australia. Typical ad has some quaint behavior going on, followed by "Australian for..." whatever; then "Foster's - Australian for "beer". So this recent one has Aussies yelling "OI!" at each other and saying nothing else. "OI! Australian for 'networking'." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Oi is one of those multi-purpose expressions that has different uses depending on context. It can be a simple attention seeking device, particularly to a small group of people. A bit like Hey in American maybe? It's also part of a chant used by Aussies at the cricket. It's a leader-repsonse thing, with the key line of Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Oi, Oi, Oi. Not defending it. It's all pretty silly. And, despite the ignorance of many who use it, not original, being derived from a similar old English chant, which is ironic given that it's probably used the most at Test matches against England. HiLo48 (talk) 22:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In general parlance, if I were wanting to get my friend Bill's attention and he were 30 metres away, I'd probably call out "Hey, Bill". Only if I were wanting to get the attention of some wrong-doer like a trespasser on my property would I call out "Oi, you there". I've probably been conditioned by too much exposure to The Bill (sob, now sadly gone from our screens) .  The Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Oi, Oi, Oi thing is particularly horrible and misleadingly unrepresentative - no Australian ever utters such things outside of sporting attendances.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   23:18, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Here we see the problem with spelling pronunciations. Do the people who wrote SOW mean the same pronunciation as the people who wrote SOH? Are we sowing seeds or talking about female pigs? 86.164.76.95 (talk) 10:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That threw me at first, but I'm fairly certain he meant it to rhyme with "sew" or "soh". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ...Or even, doh! Yes, "SEW"-shia-paff. I had a strange conversation once with a friend of mine from New Zealand. We were in the kitchen. She asked me "have you got a measure?" At least that's what I thought she asked, until I asked her what sort of measure. "one for meshing potatoes" she replied... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Does no one say so-sho-path? —Tamfang (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Basis for La Spezia-Rimini line
Can anyone explain why linguists class Northern Italian languages north of the La Spezia-Rimini line as members of the Western Romance family, implying that they are closer to such languages as French and Spanish than to standard Italian? I thought that the most important distinguishing feature of the Western Romance family was the derivation of noun plural forms from the Latin accusative, resulting in plural forms ending in -s (even if this is often no longer pronounced in French), and our article on the La Spezia-Rimini line confirms that this a key or the key criterion for distinguishing Western Romance from other Romance languages such as standard Italian. Yet several major Northern Italian languages, such as Venetian and Lombard, derive their plural forms from the Latin nominative, just like standard Italian. So, why was the La Spezia-Rimini drawn where it was, and why are Northern Italian languages considered Western Romance? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Some assistance with Argentinian statistics from a Spanish speaker?
I wonder if a Spanish-speaking contributor could perhaps be of assistance to me here? I'm currently looking at revisions for the White Argentine article, which contains a table giving 'Net Immigration by Nationality (1857–1940', and is sourced to the Argentinian Dirección Nacional de Migraciones (National Bureau of Migrations) 1970. As it stands the chart only includes data on migration from Europe, plus a column for (unidentified) 'others'. I'd like to know if this is the way the data was originally presented, and if not, what breakdown of the figures the data actually gives? I've tried looking at the Dirección Nacional de Migraciones website (here), but due to me being a hopeless monoglot, I can't see if the data is there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you try using the English version of the site? I'll try poking around the Spanish pages.  Grsz 11 02:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd tried that. I've just had another look, and not found anything, though I may have missed something - not everything is translated. Possibly the data has been removed, or wasn't online in the first place (the article isn't exactly clear on citation here). AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Given the 1970 date, it could be from a book, an article somewhere else, pretty much anywhere.  Grsz 11 03:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, thinking about it, you may well be right. I'll see if I can figure out who posted the data in the first place, and if possible ask them. I'd posted a query about this on the talk page two weeks ago, with no response, so I thought it was worth at least trying here. Thanks for your efforts, anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As a matter of fact, the site is awfully prepared for answering your question. I tried this other one, but when I wanted to access Document no 3, a common 404 appears. Pallida  Mors  10:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If the data were accessible, I could give it a try. But if it ain't, I cain't. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Accent used by Carrie Kenny on Kim Possible
In the episodes of Kim Possible with the Bebe androids, what accent does Carrie Kenny use for the bebes' voices? Sounds european, but i'm not sure. N.I.M. (talk) 13:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * From RDE Example clip of a Bebe voice posted here on behalf of NIM because of captcha issues Nil Einne (talk) 17:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

"thelonious" meaning and origin
What does the word (or name) "Thelonious" mean and where does it come from? Besides the jazz pianist, I've seen the word used in this context, a jazz-ish song: The trumpet child will riff on love / Thelonious notes from up above / He’ll improvise a kingdom come / Accompanied by a different drum. A baby names site tells me it's of Germanic origin but I don't know if it's to be trusted. Lexicografía (talk) 16:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * According to this site, it's a Latinized form of "Till" (as in Till Eulenspiegel), which itself is a medieval nickname for "Dietrich" (and other "Diet-" (deutsch) names.) --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:47, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Though the –ous is unusual for Latin. —Tamfang (talk) 19:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I presume that the adjective "thelonious" in that song means "in the manner of Thelonious Monk". -- BenRG (talk) 03:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Spinoff question - what dialect of English is this?
This is a spin-off from another reference desk question about parakeets and lovebirds. The webpage in question is this.

My question: what dialect of English is this? I'm assuming it is a dialect of English, on the basis that I can understand most parts of most sentences, but not all of it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:47, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not a dialect of English, it is a dialect of mechanical gibberish. Several of the pages on that site are just garbled versions of pages from Yahoo Answers. For example this is this  put through a blender. 87.114.101.69 (talk) 16:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh I see. Is that deliberate? What's the point of a garbled page? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Scraper site. 86.164.76.95 (talk) 22:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it makes much more sense now. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Following some creative use of Google, it looks like a rather bodged version of this, which itself looks like English as a second language from, I'd guess, Malay (which per this often forms plurals by repeating the singular, as in "budgie budgie" in the link I've quoted). baday.net is registered in Hong Kong. Quite why a site is repeating its own contents after running them through a gibberish translator is beyond me. Tonywalton Talk 01:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder if this is some sort of attempt to get round copyright issues? If it is, I doubt it would hold up in court in most places, but I'm guessing... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Except they're both on the same website (baday.net). I wonder if there's a version somewhere in Chinese, and these are both attempts to transliterate into English. Tonywalton Talk 02:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I doubt that any of the pages on that site are legitimate questions, and any duplications of material within it are merely the same source text being scrambled in different ways. 87.114.101.69 (talk) 10:30, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Quantity/unit dash when in adjective position
Consider "The 40-meter or 7-MHz band is an amateur radio frequency band, spanning 7000 to 7300 kilohertz". Context.

Why is there a dash between the quantity and the unit (40-meter and 7-MHz)? Isn't the quantity/unit pair (without the dash) atomic?

--Mortense (talk) 23:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think Dash applies. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * You mean Hyphen. It's a hyphen, not a dash, although some people use "dash" informally to mean either.


 * Also note that although the hyphen is required (traditionally anyway) in normal English usage, it is prohibited by SI metric usage standards when the unit is represented by its symbol. Thus the example of "7-MHz band" is wrong; it should be "7 MHz band" or "7-megahertz band" or "seven-megahertz band".  In Britain they often run the symbol onto the preceding number without separation, as "7MHz band"; according to the article I cited this also violates the SI standard. --Anonymous, expanded 04:48 UTC, November 26, 2010.


 * Hyphens help to disambiguate otherwise ambiguous expressions.
 * The crew worked in twenty four-hour shifts.
 * The crew worked in twenty-four hour shifts.
 * The crew worked in twenty-four-hour shifts.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * If editing, Wikipedia articles, see WP:HYPHENS, item 3, last bullet point. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)