Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 October 14

= October 14 =

what's the arabic script say/mean in this photo?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Cannabissativadior.jpg

thank you.--72.178.129.138 (talk) 20:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm having a hard time telling one-dot diacritics apart from two-dot diacritics, but words at left seem to be qinnab bustani قنب بستاني or "garden hemp" -- and QNB in Hebrew is at the far lower left... AnonMoos (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The word at right is قناوی (qun/na:/vi: in three syllables) which is a famous surname in Arabic. It must be the name of the illustrator. --Omidinist (talk) 05:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The words at left look like "لبناني قنب" (or the other way around, which I can't get my computer to do for some reason), or "qanib lubnani", Lebanon cannabis. Lebanon is apparently famous for it. At first glance I thought the other word on the right was either an alternate Arabic transliteration of "cannabis" or possibly a Persian or old Turkish transliteration (with the "b" represented as a "v"), but I defer to Omidinist's superior knowledge. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, the Greek at the top, at least the capitals, says "cannabis emeros", or domesticated cannabis. The other Greek squiggles starts off with "cannabis" but I have no idea what the second word says. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I would prefer bustani, because in lubnani the lam would be expected to have roughly the same vertical height as the alif, which is not the case, and there also doesn't seem to be another upward curving of the baseline where the "b" would be. Arabic بستاني could also correspond roughly to Greek ΗΜΕΡΟΣ... AnonMoos (talk) 18:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * True, and the qaf also extends further up than normal. And the dot could be part of the first letter, as you say. I do see some squiggles that could be a sin, although I remember learning that sin is often handwritten as a straight line, so maybe that's what happened here. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * About the two Greek phrases: the second just repeats the first, it's the same words, κάνναβις ἥμερος (with an "ερο" ligature towards the right). In that book the old uncial Greek legends were sytematically translated into minuscule at some point. About Omidinist's suggestion: it's originally a Greek illuminated manuscript, so an Arabic name (if it is one) could impossibly be that of the painter. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Last names
Last names generally tell us something about either where the male line of a family comes from or what an ancestor did (for example, names like Smith and Miller for the latter, and a name like Hilton for the former). My friend's last name is "Crossot", and this topic came up in conversation. I couldn't tell much from the name, so I told him I'd get back to him after doing some research. What does the name tell us about his ancestors? I recognize that it is a French name and fairly uncommon, but that's about it. Does it have to do with the Church? Thank you. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 21:04, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Google Earth/Maps finds a small place in Princé, called Crossot, here. Rojomoke (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Antananarivo = Tananariv?
According to this article, "Antananarivo" should be or  (French: Tananarive). Is it just the pronouncement in Madagascar, or in English-speaking countries, as well? (excuse me if my English is not very good, it's not my native language). Thanks, 22:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the Oxford Dictionary of the World, "Antananarivo" is pronounced /ˌæntəˌnænəˈri:vəʁ/. DuncanHill (talk) 22:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You mean "Antananarivar"? It's pretty different from what I expected, and since the consonant 'ʁ' doesn't appear in IPA for English I want to be sure. 22:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by נו, טוב (talk • contribs)


 * It's definitely got the ʁ at the end. It's a vowel, not a consonant, /əʁ/ represents the vowel in the English word "no". I will say that 1) the character set offered by Wikipedia for IPA for English doesn't include all the characters used in those of my English reference books which use IPA, and 2) using the IPA template made some of the characters display incorrectlyʁ, so I didn't use the template. DuncanHill (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * [əʊ] is a transcription of the high-RP version of the sound traditionally described as "long o". Note that [ʊ] is very different from [ʁ].   Wikipedia "IPA for English" uses [oʊ] instead of [əʊ], because the former is applicable to a much broader range of English dialects... AnonMoos (talk) 22:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is all very interesting, but no-one had mentioned /əʊ/ at all yet! DuncanHill (talk) 22:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think AnonMoos was presuming to correct your IPA. I know of no dialect of English in which '/əʁ/ represents the vowel in the English word "no"', as /ʁ/ represents a gutteral fricative and not a vowel. I think some Geordies have /ʁ/ in their English, but as a realisation of [r]. I believe you have substituted /ʁ/ for /ʊ/--ColinFine (talk) 23:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not mistake it, and I checked it thoroughly. /əʁ/ is used for the vowel in "no" in the Gimson system, which according to David Crystal in his Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language "has been particularly influential in the field of teaching English as a foreign language". Please don't accuse me of being incapable of reading before you check your facts. DuncanHill (talk) 00:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Crystal also gives ʁ as a pure vowel, as in put, wolf, good, look. op. cit. p. 237. DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you actually click on the link ʁ presented above?? -- AnonMoos (talk) 02:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, so you're quoting a pronunciation in a system which strongly resembles IPA, but it different from it, and not drawing anybody's attention to the fact? --ColinFine (talk) 07:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I was using what Oxford University Press call IPA, and drew attention to that fact in my first post. I now see that several characters in my posts, as well as those of others, are displaying differently to how they were last night. Has someone played around with how IPA displays on Wikipedia? It is impossible to answer here if my posts are to be changed. DuncanHill (talk) 10:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have struck all my earlier responses, as they have been vandalised, and no longer display as they did when I made them. It is impossible to accept good faith when I find my replies being modified in this way. DuncanHill (talk) 10:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I advise the OP to consult a real reference work, not this crappy website, which mangles and distorts the answers that were given. DuncanHill (talk) 10:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry if you've been having problems, but your very first posting to this thread contained [ʁ] not [ʊ] and everybody else who posted to this thread has been able to see the difference between the two, and cut-and-paste in the one they wanted. AnonMoos (talk) 12:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's just it - my very first post DID NOT contain the one that looks like a rotated R - it contained the one that looks like a horseshoe. I checked and rechecked several times. Some of the ones I cut-and-pasted even look different now to what they did then. It is impossible for me to use IPA now on Wikipedia, as I have absolutely no way of knowing what it will look like to others, or if it will change overnight. I strongly advise anyone interested in an IPA representation of a word to avoid Wikipedia alltogether and use a real reference book instead. DuncanHill (talk) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it did. You uploaded ʁ to Wikipedia, and everyone else has always seen it as ʁ. If it displayed wrongly on your computer, that is because your computer has bad fonts installed. I advise you to grow up, drop your persecution complex, and admit that there has been a problem at your end. Algebraist 13:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I got it first by clicking the symbol in the IPA menu below the edit box. The "rotated R" that others were typing got displayed as the "horseshoe". I advise you to grow up and accept that Wikipedia is crap at some things, and displaying/typing IPA is one of them. I don't think I've ever installed any fonts on this computer. Thank you so much for all your constructive suggestions - oh, you haven't bothered to make any. I offered a good reply, based on a decent reference work, and because of technical difficulties I got abused. Well screw you. DuncanHill (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't get upset, Duncan, I can see that you are telling the truth because there is no inverted R in either of the IPA selections. I'm just testing ...  ʊʊ  ... to see if I can reproduce the strange error that occurred  ... and I can't, but this doesn't mean that it didn't happen to you.  Can anyone with a knowledge of character mappings explain how it happened?  Could it have been a bug in the Wikipedia software, or is it more likely to have been a fault on Duncan's computer?    D b f i r s   13:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no way I know of that this could havae happened within MediaWiki's software. If Duncan was copy-pasting IPA from an outside editor such as Microsoft Word, then what may have happened is that the encoding/display in Word is messed up on his computer, so what was ʁ looked like ʊ on his screen and that's what he pasted in. I'm not sure how likely that is, though.
 * And, for what it's worth, there is ʁ in the insert tool...select IPA from the drop-down menu and it's in the second 'group' (with the other fricatives). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not copy-paste from Word or anything else external, I used the drop-down box and some copy-paste from within the edit window. Both of these are now displaying differently to me, and were obviously displaying differently to others than they were to me at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 13:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, yes it is there earlier on the same line, so is there some way that Duncan's display could be corrupted in a way that caused ʁ to be displayed as ʊ ?   D b f i r s   08:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Everyone just calm down. The reference desk is no place for a pissing contest, regardless of font issues (DuncanHill, you were getting defensive even before the technical discussion began); if someone disagrees with you at a reference desk, you don't need to "defend your honor" or something. As for the technical issue, DuncanHill, for future editing, you may find it easier to insert IPA by using the javascript applet below the edit window and buttons (select "IPA" from the drop-down window) instead of copy-pasting from an outside editor. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I DID USE THE DROP DOWN THE FIRST TIME I ALREADY SAID THAT! And yes, I waas getting defensive because people were passing judgement on my contribution based on it appearing differently to them than it did to me - so it looked to me like they were talking bollocks. Their contributions also appeared differently to me than they did to them, so we were all talking at cross-purposes. DuncanHill (talk) 13:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Ouch, this getting nasty. Lets go back to the Classics. As Euripides wrote, [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/quotes Fʁench Soldier: I'm Fʁench. Why do you think I have this outʁageous accent, you silly king?] And as Sophocles replied, [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/quotes Pontius Piʊate: To pʊove our fʊiendship, we will ʊelease one of our ʊong-doers! Who shall I ʊelease?] I'm here to to have serious discussions about language in a collegial way. Feel free to attack me, I'll take it good humour. But this internecine edit-waring? I dar seyn, an hunderede on a reive,/ That it is pite for to rede, and routhe. --Shirt58 (talk) 13:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is everyone so busy not answering the poster's question? To be fair, DuncanHill attempted to answer it but made a mistake. So what?  Anyway, the pronunciation formerly given in our article was incorrect, so I will change it.  The pronunciation given is for the former (colonial) name of the capital, Tananarive.  The correct pronunciation for the current name of the capital, per Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary (MWGD), converted to IPA, is ɑntɑnɑnɑ'riːvoʊ.  Marco polo (talk) 14:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I wave my private parts at your aunties! r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The answer to the question is that most people in the english speaking world would probably not know what an Antananarivo is and how to pronounce it and would most likely pronounce it as it is spelt, lacking more information. But here is a relevant nugget from Douglas Adams in Last Chance to See:
 * Antananarivo is pronounced Tananarive, and for much of this century has been spelt that way as well. When the French took over Madagascar at the end of the last century (colonised is probably too kind a word for moving in on a country that was doing perfectly well for itself but which the French simply took a fancy to), they were impatient with the curious Malagasy habit of not bothering to pronounce the first and last syllables of place names. They decided, in their rational Gallic way, that if that was how the names were pronounced then they could damn well be spelt that way too. It would be rather as if someone had taken over England and told us that from now on we would be spelling Leicester 'Lester' and liking it. We might be forced to spell it that way, but we wouldn't like it, and neither did the Malagasy. As soon as they managed to divest themselves of French rule, in 1960, they promptly reinstated all the old spellings and just kept the cooking and the bureaucracy.

 meltBanana  21:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The nerve! As if French is the last word in logical, phonetic, say-it-exactly-as-you-see-it pronunciation. They have even worse weirdnesses than English does.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   23:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Writing Antananarivo and pronouncing Tananarive would seem like a very French thing to do. Rimush (talk) 15:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)