Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 October 16

= October 16 =

German word gender
I want to nickname a particular girl I know something similar to "The Stargazer" or "The Star Hunter" in German. Google translate pops out a result of "Der Sterngucker" for the former and "Der Stern Jäger" for the latter. However, a friend I know who took German tells me (as does the German Wiktionary) that "Der" is the masculine form of "the". Does it work to just switch out the "Der" for "Die" to make it feminine, or is it more complicated than that? Would it require changes to "Sterngucker" or "Stern Jäger" as well? (In short, what would be the German translation of "The Stargazer" and "The Star Hunter" when used as a nickname for a girl?)

Also, I notice that when I type just "stargazer" into Google Translate, it puts out "Sterndeuter"...but when I make it "The stargazer", that's when it pops out "Sterngucker". Which of these is the correct translation for "one who stargazes"?

Thanks in advance, Ks0stm (T•C•G) 03:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You could use die Sternjägerin -- Jägerin is "huntress". Sterngucker sounds hideous regardless of gender. Looie496 (talk) 04:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If it's a girl that you wish to honor with this nickname, it would be "die Sternguckerin" or "die Sterndeuterin". Note the feminine suffix. The reason "The Stargazer" yields "Sterngucker" is probably because there's a piece of music of that name by Franz Lehár. I agree that "die Sternguckerin" sounds pretty silly, but "die Sterndeuterin" is reasonably euphonious by German standards. If you don't care whether this German term is colloquial and in ordinary use, you could go with something more inventive like "Sternwächterin", "Sternblickerin", "Sternspäherin", or the tongue-twisting "Sternstarrerin" ("star-starer"). However, your best bet would seem to be "Sterndeuterin". L ANTZY T ALK 05:49, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, "Sterndeuter" literally means something more like "star reader" or "astrologer", and its connotation in German is not as dreamy and metaphorical as the English "stargazer". It carries an implication of specialized knowledge. L ANTZY T ALK 05:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, "Sternstarrerin" sounds pretty cool, so long as I am pronouncing it correctly, (literally how it looks; Stern-star-er-in?). "Sternwächterin" isn't bad either, but I have relatively no knowledge of how to pronounce "wächterin", so I may be saying it completely wrong. Ks0stm (T•C•G) 06:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * A very rough approximation of "wächterin" using English phonemes would be "VESH-tuh-rin", and "Sternstarrerin" would be something like "shtairn-SHTAR-ruh-rin". L ANTZY T ALK 08:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no "sh" in Wächterin, but then again I wouldn't know how to write out the pronunciation of ch for English-speakers. Rimush (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the voiceless velar fricative (IPA /x/), I've seen it spelled as "kh" sometimes. Lexicografía (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hence the phrase "very rough approximation". I was writing it out so that an English speaker totally ignorant of German phonology might come close to pronouncing it. Lex, the "ch" in "wächterin" is not /x/ but /ç/, and the closest thing to /ç/ in standard English is /ʃ/. Remember Kennedy's "Ish bin ein Berliner." L ANTZY T ALK 21:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Shows my knowledge of German. Good to know. [grin] Lexicografía (talk) 22:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Isn't that an East/West difference? When I watched Goodbye Lenin, the characters were saying something much closer to 'Ish', whereas the tapes and videos we saw in school (and Austrians and West Germans I've met) sounded more like the 'ch' in 'loch' (although softer?). I've not met any East Germans, so I assumed the different pronunciation in Goodbye Lenin was down to that. 109.155.37.180 (talk) 22:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a pretty close sound in English to /ç/. Say "Hugh".  The /j/ in /hju:/ lifts the tongue up (can't remember the technical term for this) so it's near enough to /çju:/. Say "Hugh", and draw out the initial consonant, and you're pretty close to /ç/.--Shirt58 (talk) 09:25, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not that much East/West, 109.155, because there's no unitary "East German accent/dialect". What is usually referred to as East German is Thuringian-Upper Saxon German, spoken only in Saxony and Thuringia, and I don't think ch is pronounced /ʃ/ in those dialects. The realization of ch as /ʃ/ is a feature of the Berlin dialect (Goodbye Lenin takes places in Berlin), feature which is to some extent shared with the Cologne dialect (Kölsch), despite the geographical distance between the two cities. This is an interesting phenomenon to linguists, because the dialects in two far apart cities, each surrounded by different kinds of German, both grew to include some of the same features. Rimush (talk) 14:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's pretty cool, thanks. The only sop to accents/dialects in my lessons was zwei/zwo (sp?), and I hadn't really considered that such a clear difference would be characteristic of a city like that. 109.155.37.180 (talk) 14:44, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a type of fish called Stargazer, which translates to Himmelsgucker ("Skygazer"), which sounds pretty neat (again, just add the "-in" at the end to create the female form). Sternstarrerin sounds really weird to a native-German ear. It would sound a little bit better if you change the star part to plural - Sternenstarrerin - (someone gazing at the stars, rather than someone gazing at one star) but still weird. Sternguckerin, even though that's the singular again, would be the better choice. The "gucken" part means looking or gazing, while "starren" is a stare. Note that Sterngucker(in) also is a term used for a fetus passing the birth canal face up rather than face down during childbirth. -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 11:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In addition to the above, "-starrer(in)" sounds odd too, and not very friendly. Starren has rather negative connotations (mostly involuntary or senseless, rather than attentive purposeful gazing). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:21, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Starren means staring, so yes. Rimush (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Stern(en)beobachterin would be another option, meaning a female somebody who watches (in the sense of "monitors") a star/the stars. The "-wächterin" above would be a watcher in the sense of guarding. -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 14:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To capture the feel of "star gazer", you could go with "Sternträumer(in)" (Star Dreamer). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For "The Stargazer", I'd say "die Sternschauerin". You may also say "die Sternblickerin" or "die Sternspäherin" ("Sternspäherin" has a connotation of looking in order to get information, not just enjoying the beauty of the stars). If you say "die Sternguckerin", that would sound as if you were teasing her a bit. -- Irene1949 (talk) 22:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The first thing one needs to know is _why_ you want to call her "the stargazer". Does she like astronomy? Does she like astrology? Is she a daydreamer? The optimal translation will be different for each of these cases. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 15:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the primary reason being that she invited me to go 'star hunting' (essentially stargazing) with her about the second time I'd ever talked to her, and so I decided I might as well find a related nickname. Evidently, this is basically just because she likes looking at the stars (again, essentially stargazing), if that helps in translation. Ks0stm (T•C•G) 14:23, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Like in the typical movie scene where two people are lying on a car roof or head by head in a meadow, enjoying the beauty of the stars, silently or sharing deep thoughts about the meaning of life?
 * In that case "Die Sternenguckerin" would be the best choice, I guess. to stargaze is "Sterne gucken". ("Sternguckerin" or "Sternenguckerin" is both okay. The difference has no semantical meaning (epenthesis). The Google count slightly prefers "Sterngucker" over "Sternengucker" but "Sternenguckerin" sounds a bit more poetic.)
 * "Sternendeuterin" would be somebody who seaches for meaning in the stars (astrology).
 * "Sternenspäherin" would be somebody who wants to discover something in the stars or discover new stars (SETI, exoplanetology etc.)
 * "Sternenjägerin" would be somebody who tries to track down new stars.
 * "Sternenwächterin" sounds kinda like a character from a science fiction fantasy novel (keeper of the stars).
 * "Sternenstarrerin" sounds like a lunatic mesmerized by the stars.
 * "Sternenbeobachterin" would be somebody who carefully watches the stars (star observer).
 * "Sternenblickerin" invokes no specific notion. It's a bit cold without context.
 * "Sternenschauerin" would be the closest competitor to "Sternenguckerin". "Sterne schauen" is used for to stargaze, but "Sternenschauer" is rather uncommon (it has a decent number of Google hits, but these mostly refer to the homographic word for meteor shower). --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 22:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The Grimms offer a wide choice of star-gazing related terms (start typing stern... here) including a charming entry on "Sterngucker" (astrologo...seine kunst gilt gewöhnlich als unchristlich oder einfältig, also, umgangssprachlich häufig bezeichnung eines menschen, der den kopf hoch trägt). It also has Sternhure, but it seems to mean something entirely else^^--Janneman (talk) 22:41, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am German, but I never heard the word Sternhure. I can only tell you that Hure ist the German word for whore. -- Irene1949 (talk) 13:42, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The entry Janneman refers to can be viewed here. Btw, Janneman is German too and I guess that's the reason why he found the 19th century old-fashioned word Sternhure funny. Because it means 'star whore'. The funniness of Janneman's remark of course is lost in non-speakers of German. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 13:53, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Jokingly: Hanna-Guck-in-die-Luft as a female form of Hans-Guck-in-die-Luft. Not exactly stargazing, though... ;-) -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've just remembered a poem by Matthias Claudius: Die Sternseherin Lise -- Irene1949 (talk) 00:12, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

"shine" as a slur for a black person
I had always imagined the racial slur "shine" to be a fairly recent invention, and I strongly associate its use with Italian-Americans on the eastern seaboard. But the other day I was reading Too Many Cooks, a Nero Wolfe novel from 1938, in which one of the characters, the all-American Archie Goodwin, uses the term off-handedly in reference to black kitchen staff: "These shines can take it. They're used to it." So the term is not an Italian thing, and is far older than I thought. Does anyone know how old? Any information on its etymology? I would check the OED, but I don't have access. L ANTZY T ALK 08:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The OED's earliest citation is from 1908 (a dictionary of criminal slang), and—continuing the mystery-novel theme—there are also citations from Hammett's The Dain Curse in 1929 and Chandler's Farewell, My Lovely in 1940. Many of us will recall Dooley Wilson singing the 1910 song "Shine" in Casablanca. (And, coincidentally, I too recently read Too Many Cooks for the first time.) Deor (talk) 10:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC
 * As to the origin of the term, isn't it that shoeshine boys in the uS were stereotypically black? Sorry, no cite. --Anonymous, 16:31 UTC, October 16, 2010.
 * That's plausible. Looking around the interwebs, a lot of websites put forward that etymology. L ANTZY T ALK 22:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Stephen King was originally going to call one of his books The Shine, but since one of the major characters is black, he was persuaded to change it to The Shining. 216.93.213.191 (talk) 20:26, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I always took it to be connected with shoeshine boys, but there might be more to it. As EO points out, "shiner" meaning a "black eye" turned up around the same time, early 1900s. Things that are black, such as the polished tip of shoe, or a dark-skinned and shaved head, can kind of "shine" or reflect light. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:57, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Word for piece of ground upon which UK Motorway Service Area is built?
When I was in France recently I noticed that on French motorways there were things which were called "Aire de.....", which had various facilities ranging from just parking and toilets to a complete set of services: parking, toilets, fuel, food etc.

I was trying to think of a English equivalent to "aire", and I was trying to remember a word I thought I had seen in official descriptions of regulations relating to UK Motorway Service Areas.

This word might not be quite the equivalent of "aire", but I would still like to try to remember what it was.

I have done various searches and asked a number of people but have not come up with the word I half remember.

I have a feeling that the word begins with p, and the best I have come up with so far is "precinct", but I have a feeling that this is not the word.

Some suggestions & thoughts I have already had, but which I do not think are the one, are "area", "plot", "perimeter", "curtilage", "messuage", "purlieu" and "premises".

It may be that I have simply mis-remembered and the word I am trying to find simply does not exist!FrankSier (talk) 12:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what word the official documents would use. "Area" is generic for a piece of land. The usual equivalent for "aire" is "services", but it is not exact because "aires" on French motorways might have full services (petrol station, restaurant, shop) but some are only a picnic area with toilets. All stops on UK motorways have full services AFAIK. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

french de
How do I know when to use de alone and when to use the de + definite article (du, de la, de l', des)? I am not confused about the use of the de + article for the partitive, or the alone de for Je suis de ... or like that, but what if you have a de between 2 nouns, or a de after a verb, and cases like that ? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.78.167 (talk) 15:45, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You're actually asking about the usage of the definite article in English vs. French. One basic rule is that French uses the article more often for abstracts ("La paix" = "Peace"). AnonMoos (talk) 16:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you give some examples of the cases you're referring to? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 16:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This partly has to do with differences in uses of the definite article, but there are some other rules. For example, the definite article disappears in phrases of negation: J'ai du pain but Je n'ai pas de pain  Also, the definite article disappears in phrases that call for "de" in non-partitive contexts: J'ai du pain but "J'ai besoin de pain  (However, "J'ai le pain d'hier" --> "J'ai besoin du pain d'hier)  One way to think about both of these rules is the following formula: de + de la OR de + du = de.  As for differences in the use of the definite article, here is another example.  The French equivalent of "I love bread" is J'adore le pain.  On the other hand, "I want bread" is Je veux du pain.  In the first case, you love all bread, you love bread as an abstract category.  In the second case, you want a piece of bread.  Notice that, in both cases, no article or modifier stands in front of the English word bread.  English does not require the determinacy of nouns to be specified in many contexts.  With few exceptions, French does require this.  In French, nouns can rarely stand alone.  (The main exception that springs to mind is that certain proper nouns do not require articles or partitives.  Still, some proper nouns, such as the names of countries, do require definite articles in most contexts.)  In French, you have to decide whether you are talking about a specific instance or the abstract idea of the referent of a given noun (definite article), a nonspecific instance of the referent of a given noun (indefinite article), or a portion of the referent of a given noun (partitive).  Almost all nouns have to be assigned to one of these three categories and be prefaced with the appropriate article or partitive (with the exceptions noted above).  Marco polo (talk) 19:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)