Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 September 12

= September 12 =

Reference Desk
I am in the process of building my own reference desk. I have a dictionary, atlas, and 8 or more items. The most current additions are Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament and a Greek-English Interlinear copy of The New Testament. These are invaluable references, but are really not what I would prefer to use, because they must be used in tandem, a tedious task. I am a frequent user of this internet reference site. It is exactly what I want to use, but in a more tactile format. Does anyone know of a reference which better resembles biblelexicon.org? Thank you very much Wikipedians! schyler (talk) 00:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * There's BibleGateway.com for different translations of the Bible.. Lexicografía (talk) 01:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Lexicografía. I am familiar with that website. I am looking for a reference book, though, that which I can add to my reference desk, and use when I do not have access to the internet. schyler (talk) 02:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not into biblical scholarship myself and so won't be of much use to you, but I think you could get better answers if you specified what you like about that website that you'd like to get in book form. I just played around there for a few minutes and it seems to have a lot of different aspects to it; if we knew what functions you were specifically looking for (parallel translations, transcriptions, etc.), it might help. Also, if you don't get a decent answer here in a couple of days, the Humanities desk might be a good place to inquire; I think it gets slightly more exposure. Matt Deres (talk) 02:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I see. In Thayer's it is based on Strong's Concordance, having a veritable dictionary of Greek words used in The New Testament. On BibleLexicon it has a phrase-by-phrase verse-by-verse translation, the ideal reference. It is really like an Interlinear Concordance which is what my two current references do for me (currently I look up the verse in my interlinear translation, transliterate the Greek, and find it alphabetically in the concordance, using two references in tandem). schyler (talk) 04:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know if Cruden's concordance is online, but when I was studying theology in the dim and distant past, it was recognised as the best available.--TammyMoet (talk) 08:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Some editions of the UBS Greek New Testament (Aland et. al.) have a Greek-English New Testament lexicon in the back (but you have to be comfortable in the Greek alphabet to use it). My edition is ISBN 3-438-05113-3, but there are probably more recent editions... AnonMoos (talk) 15:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Tress, trix and tor
We may have discussed this topic before, but my searches haven't discovered a full-on discussion (it's been mentioned briefly in some questions about related subjects).

Some –tor names denoting males take –trix when their holders are female:
 * Aviator --> aviatrix (not aviatress)
 * Dominator --> dominatrix (not dominatress)
 * Executor --> executrix (not executress)
 * Testator --> testatrix (not testatress)

Some other –tor names become –tress:
 * Actor --> actress (not actrix; even actress is frowned upon these days, except at the Oscars)
 * Elector --> electress (not electrix; we're talking European rulers here, not citizens who are entitled to vote)
 * Proprietor --> proprietress (not proprietrix; but it’s more common to see proprietor used for all sexes)
 * Protector --> protectress (not protectrix)
 * Sculptor --> sculptress (not sculptrix)

Then there are the –tor names that never change for sex at all (or, only for humorous effect in limited circumstances), including:
 * Administrator (not administratress or administratrix)
 * Alligator (not alligatress or alligatrix)
 * Benefactor (not benefactress or benefactrix: I seem to recall seeing benefactress, but it’s non-standard)
 * Director (not directress or directrix; but directrix exists with a different meaning)
 * Doctor (not doctress or doctrix)
 * Lector (not lectress or lectrix)
 * Legislator (not legislatress or legislatrix)
 * Mentor (not mentress or mentrix)
 * Monitor (not monitress or monitrix)
 * Navigator (not navigatress or navigatrix)
 * Orator (not oratress or oratrix)
 * Proctor (not proctress or proctrix)
 * Prosecutor (not prosecutress or prosecutrix)
 * Realtor (not realtress or realtrix)
 * (Veloci)raptor (not raptress or raptrix).

So, who or what decides which become –trix, which become –tress, and which stay –tor? --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   03:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * In a very general way, the ones that came directly from Latin have -trix, the ones that came through Latin by way of French have -tress (from -trice), and the ones that are gender-neutral (or almost always historically masculine) remain -tor. But a glance at the examples you gave does not really prove this general conclusion... Adam Bishop (talk) 05:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, I can think of some others - "empress" (from French, ultimately "imperatrix"), but also "princess" and "countess" (also through French, but they originally end in "-issa" in Latin). Hmm. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * (EC) That sounds pretty reasonable, but the OED has etymologies for all the first four on the list as being from Latin through French. Haven't looked up the others yet.   Wiki Dao   (talk)  05:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The feminine suffixes ("aviatrix", "actress", etc.) are falling more and more out of use these days, though I expect "dominatrix" to stick around. A friend with good proofreading eyes calls herself an "editrix", but it's a joke. PhGustaf (talk) 05:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, you can have a lot of good clean fun with these. Is mattress a synonym of matrix?  Is the male equivalent a "mator"?  Is the Queen a descendant of Sophia, Electrix of Hanover?  :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   08:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If a bare rocky hill in Wales is female, is it a tress or a trix? Answer: no, don't be stupid. See also list of Asterix characters - none of these really fit, but it seems in keeping with the general spirit of the question. There was a character in Asterix and the Goths called Electric, which is a near miss. 213.122.16.225 (talk) 09:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I suspect you know this, Jack, but it may be worth mentioning that a couple of your examples don't even involve the -or ("one who ...") suffix. Alligator is an anglicization of Spanish el lagarto ("the lizard"), and mentor is just the name of the character in the Odyssey. I'm pretty sure that I've seen administratrix used seriously, though. Deor (talk) 12:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Some I didn't expect to find on wiktionary are agitatrix, motrix (female instigator), prosecutrix, creatrix, negotiatrix, and tutrix. --Sluzzelin talk  18:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ooh, lovely, they're all new to me. I know someone I can now call the Motrix of Mirth.  She probably won't know what the hell I'm talking about, but what the heck. :)   --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The same person that decides that a domestic canine is a "dog". No, really. All of vocabulary is arbitrary, and the fact that we can often find patterns and rules in particular areas doesn't change that. (Esperanto tries to change that by making its derivational suffixes universal and invariable, but there is still a degree of arbitrariness in the meaning of derived words.) --ColinFine (talk) 12:19, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Doctrix!! Luvvit! Now I know what to call her when I go in next week :)) --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it's cute or disturbing that my (male) GP offered to fetch a 'lady doctor' if I wasn't comfortable talking to him. Well, I'm not now! I would have been more at ease if he'd used the humorous 'doctrix'. 86.164.78.91 (talk) 17:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * What did you want to hear? "Woman doctor"? Slightly ambiguous, because it sounds a bit like "tree surgeon", and a tree surgeon of course is not a tree. It's difficult to know the right thing to say. 81.131.5.26 (talk) 17:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Lady doctor" also sounds like an ObGyn specialist. Rimush (talk) 17:57, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a tad less ambiguous, since not all that many women self-identify as ladies. 81.131.5.26 (talk) 18:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Woman doctor" (at a push) or "female doctor" or "a doctor who is a woman" would have been fine. "Doctrix", we could have laughed and I'd have relaxed a bit. "Lady doctor" has a just-recent-enough patronising history to make me uncomfortable about how seriously my GP is going to take my problems, without being archaic enough that I can assume his use is humorous. Add in his age, and it's an extremely efficient way to worry me! 86.164.78.91 (talk) 20:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it has to be "a doctor who is a woman", then, because people object to "female doctor" on the grounds that "female" is usually applied to animals. If in doubt, use three times as many words - this can be my new rule of thumb for these situations. 81.131.66.179 (talk) 21:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've certainly seen people objecting to the use of 'female' as a noun, since it has been used that way in a deeply derogatory fashion and is generally 'diminishing', attempting to reduce the woman to nothing but her femaleness. I've never seen anyone object to its use as an adjective. That sounds like something people make up when they don't understand why some language is offensive. If 'doctor who is a woman' is the only alternative to you saying 'lady doctor', yes that's much better. It isn't the only option, but I'd rather you take the piss than offend people. 86.164.78.91 (talk) 23:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * [See William Safire - On Language - Woman vs. Female - New York Times.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 14:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)]


 * Mary Seacole referred to herself as a doctress, which is how her mother was also known. Ka renjc 19:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * In 1926, Henry Watson Fowler (of A Dictionary of Modern English Usage fame) recommended the use of teacheress, doctoress, singeress and danceress. He liked the idea that the words carried two pieces of information.  His recommendations were largely ignored.    D b f i r s   07:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * [A similar discussion for French nouns is at http://www.ciep.fr/chroniq/femi/f10.htm. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)]

JackOfOz -- English-language forms with special feminine suffixes are really ever diminishing in number, except in certain specific historical, technical, and legalistic contexts (they were already diminishing during the first two-thirds of the 20th century, even before the rise of the feminist movement, though the feminist movement gave the trend a certain additional push). When people coin specific female-referring terms nowadays, they're likely to be jocular and facetious, and to end in "-ette" more often than "-ess" or "-trix" (e.g. bachelorette). Furthermore, many of the forms you listed (such as director, etc.) are not felt, from the modern synchronic English point of view, as having any special Latin suffix, but rather merely the ordinary "-er" agentive/occupational suffix with a variant spelling. AnonMoos (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * A relevant Language Log post, which suggests that the use of such feminine title is declining: Lexicografía (talk) 18:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Jupiter Elicius
How should/could "Elicius" in Jupiter Elicius be translated to English? ---Sluzzelin talk  07:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether there is an effective translation. The epithet is related to the verb elicio, "call forth"—the source of English elicit—and Lewis and Short's dictionary says of Elicius, "a surname of Jupiter, because from him celestial signs or omens were obtained (or acc. to others because he was called down by incantations)". Offhand, I can't think of an English word that's equivalent. Deor (talk) 11:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Google brings up stuff related to weather: Elicius supposedly means "of weather and storms" or "of thunder and lightning" (the first one stems from an older version of a Wikipedia article). Rimush (talk) 12:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I found the weather reference in foreign language Wikipedias too, e.g. German WP has "Blitzlenker" (driver/controller of lighting), but they all didn't fit the etymology. The removal of the entire "Jupiter Elicius" entry, from the "older version" Rimush is referring to, had brought me here. I wanted to restore it, but couldn't find a suitable translation or explanation. Now Deor has done just that ( :-). Thanks, both of you! ---Sluzzelin talk  21:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Learning
What is the best way to learn another language on your own? Rosetta stone, books, something else?

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ni-cadAA600mAh (talk • contribs) 13:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Rosetta Stone is excellent (although expensive), especially with Spanish. I don't know about other programs or books. Lexicografía (talk) 16:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Have a look at Livemocha. It's free (up to a point) and does the job for most peoples' needs. Seegoon (talk) 22:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The most effective way, of course, is to spend time immersed in a place where the language is spoken (usually after you've acquired some basics). It's not the easiest or fastest, though. But the answer to your question depends on your particular needs and what you mean by "best". r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Your vs You're
what is the differene between your and you'er —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.95.185.74 (talk) 15:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Your is generally used to describe possession. examples: That's your fault. There's your car! Can I borrow your laptop? Is that Yours? You're is the shortened form of you are and is generally used to describe a state of being. examples: You're sick. You're good. You're happy. L Kensington (talk • contribs) 15:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * There are articles whose titles begin with Your and there are articles whose titles begin with You're.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 15:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And there is even a title containing both: You're On Your Own. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Your is the second person possessive personal pronoun. That means it's used the same way as my, his, hers, its, our, their. So: my cat, your cat, his cat, her cat, its cat, our cat, their cat.
 * You're is short for you are, with the apostrophe replacing the letter a. It's used where it would make sense to say you are. So: "You are despicable", "You're despicable".
 * 86.164.78.91 (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Is that Yours?" What's with the capital y? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 08:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe he's addressing a deity: "God, is that bomber jacket Yours or did Dave leave it over here?" L ANTZY T ALK 05:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * God, is that Your idea of a joke? Bus stop (talk) 05:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The Deity is often addressed (and not only in English) in the second person singular, for example, "Our Father, Who Art in Heaven, Hallowèd be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done ... For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory..." —— Shakescene (talk) 05:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

What does this mean?
I got a Japanese Chikorita and its nickname and original trainer were:

http://i56.tinypic.com/dxmww1.png

What do these mean? Probably that second one is just a name but I'm interested to see what the first one is. If you can't understand it I'll redo it, it was drawing rather than writing for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.113.87 (talk) 22:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The top bit says 'Chikorita'. The bottom bit says 'Chiaki', which is a girl's name. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  22:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha! That makes sense, I suppose. Thanks. 93.96.113.87 (talk) 12:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Still extant vs extant
Is it redundant to say "still extant" vs "extant". For example: Which one would be correct?Smallman12q (talk) 23:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) A document containing John Hancock's signature is extant.
 * 2) A document containing John Hancock's signature is still extant.


 * Both correct -- "is extant" just means "exists". "Still" provides a sort of emphasis.  --Anonymous, 23:44 UTC, September 12, 2010.
 * Agree; "still extant" can be correct in the right context. For instance, "300 [things] were around in [time period], but only one is still extant/only one remains extant" sounds ok to me. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 23:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * You'd normally use "still extant" in contexts where you wouldn't normally expect the thing to still be extant after all that time. You wouldn't use it otherwise.  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 00:52, 13 September 2010 (UTC)