Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 April 16

= April 16 =

Translation from Arabic
One is a user's name (عمرو بن كلثوم) and the other (ستيفان ديون) is supposed to be "Stéphane Dion" in Arabic. Can someone translate the first and confirm the second? Thanks. Bielle (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The first one -- if you mean transliterate -- is Amr Bin Kolthom; and the other one is correct. --Omidinist (talk) 04:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not Amru or Amraw or some such? —Tamfang (talk) 05:35, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * No. See this page: Amr ibn Kulthum, though its transliteration is a little differnet. --Omidinist (talk) 06:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The extra waw in Amr is there to distinguish it from Umar, since they are otherwise spelled the same. It's not pronounced as a long vowel. There are also some nouns that are normally spelled with a waw at the end, even though it is pronounced as a short vowel, like father and brother (as in "Abu Dhabi" for example). Adam Bishop (talk) 06:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * As I don't read Arabic script at all, I wasn't sure if I need a translation (as some user names are also words) or a transliteration. Thanks to those of you who have helped out. Bielle (talk) 19:10, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Treeing preay and dropping balls
Translating Jeffery Deaver's Edge. I found the sentences as follow:

The government attorney now said, "Corte, look, you've been so busy trying to tree Loving that you dropped the ball on the primary compeletely."

Treeing preay and dropping balls. I supposed in court, before a jury, he didn't mix metaphors so relentlessly.

The metaphors seem to make sense to me. I wonder why the speaker says so. --Analphil (talk) 11:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The references would not be acceptable in a British court where metaphor needs to be re-phrased in straightforward language. I had always assumed that American courts applied the same rules.  The references are very obscure to me, and, were I on the jury, I would require an explanation, but they may be familiar to all Americans?    D b f i r s   12:14, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * See the bulleted item on mixed metaphor near the bottom of the lead of Metaphor. "Treeing" something occurs when one is hunting (usually with dogs doing the treeing—i.e., driving the prey up into the branches of a tree, whence it can't escape). "Dropped the ball" presumably comes from baseball (or perhaps American football). Since hunting and playing ball sports aren't usually engaged in together, the two metaphors are in some sense incompatible. Deor (talk) 13:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * But would everyone understand "treeing" in the US? I've never heard of it. Alansplodge (talk) 14:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It depends on how familiar one is with rural pursuits, I guess. See the last paragraph of Raccoon, for example. (I see that we have an article Treeing, as well.) Deor (talk) 15:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well-known term to this American midwesterner. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Barking up the wrong tree" is in very common use in the UK - I didn't realise that's where it came from. Alansplodge (talk) 18:28, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I am an American who has never lived in a rural area (only in the top 10 urban agglomerations), and I understand the meaning of the sentence above quite clearly. The expressions used in the sentence were originally metaphors but are so common as to be idioms, at least in American English.  Marco polo (talk) 20:10, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The author, who has practised law in the USA (sorry, that should be "practiced" in American English), will presumably know to what extent metaphor and idiom is permitted in American courts. British judges used to be particularly strict about this.    D b f i r s   09:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the sentence quoted above was supposed to have been uttered in court, but merely by a lawyer in conversation. The OP writes "I supposed in court, before a jury, he didn't mix metaphors so relentlessly", suggesting that the character only mixed metaphors when not in court before a jury. —Angr (talk) 10:13, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. I thought that was what the author was saying, and what the OP was asking about.  Have I misunderstood?    D b f i r s   16:56, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Achim (name, New Testament)
In the King James Version of the Bible, I find the name Achim in Matthew 1:14: "And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud" (the Greek spelling of the name is Αχιμ).

As my son's name is Achim, I'd like to know the origin and the original meaning of the name Achim in Matthew 1:14. In German books about names, the name Achim is said to be a short form of Joachim, which is derived from the name of the biblical king who is called “Jojakim” in Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible, and who is called “Jehoiakim” in the King James Version. But I wonder whether there is a different explanation of the name ‘’Achim’’ in the New Testament. -- Irene1949 (talk) 23:05, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * See Achim (name) and http://www.multilingualbible.com/matthew/1-14.htm.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:37, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, Achim is an anagram of Micah.—Wavelength (talk) 23:49, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not an anagram in Hebrew. First I thought it was pronounced like "akh", "brother", but apparently it has a kuf. It could be related to Hakim, a common name in Arabic; that is, if it doesn't have a khet... --Lazer Stein (talk) 01:09, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Lazer Stein -- If it's Jehoiakim ( יהויקים ) without the shortened prefixed version of the Tetragrammaton ( יהו ), then it would be יקים, as explained in my previous comment. "Hakim" (which actually can stand for either of two Arabic words) has consonants corresponding to Hebrew ח-כ-מ , completely different from the root ק-ו-מ which would be behind יקים ... AnonMoos (talk) 01:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Is it usual to transcribe qoph with chi? —Tamfang (talk) 04:13, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I've forgotten some of the details of the (partial) regularities governing ancient Greek transcriptions of Hebrew, but Θ, Φ, Χ were still pretty much aspirated stop consonants in Greek at that time, and there was little correlation between Τ, Π, Κ vs. Θ, Φ, Χ and stop vs. fricative allophones in Hebrew (though Latin "F" consistently became Greek Φ)... AnonMoos (talk) 06:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * But doesn't Hakim mean wise, as does the root ח-כ-מ ? Is there just a relationship between that and ק-ו-מ ?--Lazer Stein (talk) 18:59, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no relationship between roots ח-כ-מ and ק-ו-מ ... AnonMoos (talk) 03:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * There's an article Achim (name), which I've just now expanded. If it originates as Jehoiakim with the shortened prefixed version of the Tetragrammaton removed, then it's the third person masculine singular imperfect Hiph'il (causative) form of triconsonantal root q-w-m (basic meaning "to stand"). AnonMoos (talk) 23:41, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your detailed answers.
 * Unfortunately, I do not quite understand “the third person masculine singular imperfect Hiph'il (causative) form“. For me, “imperfect” would mean that it is something like “he stood”. I never heard of the word “causative”. When I try to make sense of it, I get something like “he is caused to stand” or “he causes somebody or something to stand”. Maybe both is wrong. Can you please give me a correct explanation?


 * Maybe it is interesting that in the Septuagint, Jehoiakim’s name is spelled ιωακιμ.-- Irene1949 (talk) 10:14, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In Hebrew grammar, the so-called "imperfect" isn't an imperfect at all but an imperfective. In most cases it can be conveniently translated into English with the future tense. A causative is indeed a form that means "cause to X". Causatives aren't productive in Germanic languages anymore, but there are some examples like raise (causative of rise) or German stellen (causative of stehen; particularly obvious in collocations like zur Verfügung stellen "to make available" vs. zur Verfügung stehen "to be available"). So the third person masculine singular imperfect Hiph'il (causative) form of a verb meaning "to stand" can be translated "he will cause to stand"/"er wird (aufrecht) stellen". —Angr (talk) 10:32, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. The modern German name Achim is almost certainly short for Joachim, as the books you've seen say. The Achim in Matthew 1:14 isn't important enough a character to have had a significant impact on name-giving, but Joachim as the traditional (though non-Biblical) name of the father of the Virgin Mary, is. —Angr (talk) 10:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * STX: My second message in this discussion was (like my first message) a reply to the original post, and not a reply to my first message.  Therefore, I indented each of those messages by one increment, in accordance with Help:Using talk pages (permanent link here).
 * —Wavelength (talk) 14:05, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * @ Angr: Thank you for your explanations. I agree that the Achim in Matthew 1:14 is not the Origin of the German name Achim, I just liked the idea that there might be a different interpretation of that name. Certainly it is short for Joachim.


 * I was surprised that Joachim in the English Wikipedia is about the father of Jesus' Mother Mary. I didn't even know that Mary's father is said to have been called Joachim, although I knew that her mother is said to have been called Anna. Nevertheless I think that the origin of the German name Joachim is not the name of Mary's father, but the name of that ancient king who is called ιωακιμ in the septuagint. -- Irene1949 (talk) 09:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


 * In English name lists, I didn't find any name which might be derived from Joachim. Can you tell me if there is such a name? -- Irene1949 (talk) 09:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)