Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 August 20

= August 20 =

Learning IPA
In a thread up above one editor asked another "Can you give the IPA?" At times I would love to, but I have no idea where to start.

Is there an Idiot's Guide to IPA, or equivalent?

I speak Australian (we call it English), if that is of any relevance. HiLo48 (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * This is explained in Australian English phonology. The symbols used for the sounds are IPA. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:09, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * If you want to read a book, Anthony Burgess's A Mouthful of Air is a good introduction.


 * This page is comprehensive, if not a little cluttered: International Phonetic Alphabet chart for English dialects. If you want to use the characters click on Special Characters at the top of the edit box when you post.


 * HiLo, do you know any foreign languages? Equivalents can be given. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd hardly say I speak them, but I am familiar with pronunciation in French and Indonesian. I'm guessing that, having more consistent pronunciation, they may be more useful than English in learning IPA. HiLo48 (talk) 01:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, being able to compare the French vowels to their symbols in IPA will help make it clear when the English is confusing. For some reason the Indonesian language article is very poor--but you can also look at the phonology section of the Malay article. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Any introductory linguistics textbook will have an introduction to the IPA. I'm sure there are lots of online resources as well. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:40, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You can test your knowledge of IPA with these pages.
 * Famous first lines: an IPA quiz
 * Can you name the words given their IPA pronunciation? | Online Games & Trivia by Sporcle
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Wavelength's quiz is a close phonetic one rather than a phonemic one. That may be a bit too technical to begin with.


 * Here is free online course material from Macquarie, particularly focused on Australian http://clas.mq.edu.au/phonetics/index.html.
 * Here is a section on vowels in the IPA http://clas.mq.edu.au/phonetics/transcription/ipa/ipa_vowel.html.
 * Here is a list of IPA transcriptions of Australian vowels, with the older 1946 list being much closer to British Received Pronunciation http://clas.mq.edu.au/phonetics/phonetics/ausenglish/index.html. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Wow, what a response! Thanks everyone. HiLo48 (talk) 07:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Can't you just look up the IPA characters that you don't know? --Belchman (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I asked this exact question about a year ago, I'm Australian too, you got a MUCH better answer. :) I still haven't done much about it. Vespine (talk) 05:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The English consonants don't really vary except that some dialects retain the /x/ of loch. They are easy to learn.  Then learn the short vowels, father, amar /a/, best el /ɛ/, sin ficken /ɪ/, cost homme вот /ɔ/, put Putsch /ʊ/ and cup /ʌ/.  Then worry about the diphthongs and the difficult long English vowels. Keep in mind both the difference between dialects and between a phonemic (broad) and a phonetic (narrow) transcription.  When in doubt, always refer to a foreign language with which you are familiar.  Write out a chart of equivalents to your dialect.  And practice. μηδείς (talk) 06:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Russian (actually Komi) place-name
Does anyone know the etymology of the geographical name Vorkuta? I've read somewhere that in the Komi dialect it means "gathering-place of the dead" -- is that correct? (IMHO the name itself does have a slightly sinister sound to it -- even without considering the place's sordid history -- so I think this is pretty likely.) If this is the case, then what connection (if any) might the location have to hell in Komi/Finnish mythology? (See also a related question titled "What the hell?.." on the Humanities desk.) 67.169.177.176 (talk) 03:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The Russian article says that the Komi spelling is Vörkuta, but that the word originates in Nenets meaning "place with many bears". This may be a case of folk etymology, with an older name being reanalysed according to the language of the new inhabitants. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The airport
Several times in various articles I have come across "the Something Airport" which, to me, looks odd and I usually change to "Something Airport". I was curious though in what English variation would "the Something Airport" be common/correct? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:14, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It depends on the context. If you are referring to a place as a proper noun (i.e., treating something like "Beijing Airport" as a name), "the" is not needed. If you are, on the other hand, referring to it a descriptively (i.e., treating "Beijing airport" as a phrase meaning "the airport in Beijing"), "the" is needed. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 04:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I see that kind of thing sometimes in articles too, and not only in references to airports. I think a fair amount of English Wikipedia content is contributed by non-native English speakers who may not have a command of English articles.  Marco polo (talk) 13:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I should have given an example so here is one from yesterday. By the way I have seen this in airports in English speaking countries as well. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Listen to Rjanag.
 * I did read the example.


 * First of all, "Ass of 2008" doesn't sound right ...


 * In the first example, I would allow both "The Grantley Adams International Airport, as it is known today, handles most large aircraft including Boeing 747s." and "Grantley Adams International Airport, as it is known today, handles most large aircraft including Boeing 747s." In the first case, it's the airport that handles large aircraft, in the second, Grantley Adams does. The "as it is known today" makes a big difference.


 * In the second example, it must definitely say "Since Grantley Adams International Airport had become a relatively busy airport ..."BsBsBs (talk) 18:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * In Nebraska, where I'm originally from, it is very common for people to talk about "the Omaha airport" when they mean the airport in Omaha. But you'd never hear anyone say just "Omaha Airport," because that's not its name—its name is Eppley Airfield. In this case the distinction is between a descriptive phrase and a proper name. —Bkell (talk) 18:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * … So what Rjanag said. —Bkell (talk) 18:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to all who replied I'll keep it in mind. As for the Ass of 2008 it may not sound right but if I had remembered to add my picture you might have felt a bit differently. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

"You are a little tiger, aren't you"
At 5:40 Simon Cowell says, "Susan, you are a little tiger, aren't you". What does that mean and how could it be translated into other languages? I found a video with Bulgarian captions, but the translator appears not to have known this either, as he/she has skipped that part. --Theurgist (talk) 04:55, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It could mean many things, so I'd just translate it literally. StuRat (talk) 05:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. Imagine a frenchman saying "you are a little cabbage". Would you translate that literally to English? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  21:10, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Just for clarity here, Kittybrewster is refering to the common french term of endearment "Mon petit chou" which is sometimes mistranslated as "my little cabbage" (chou is the french word for cabbage) but actually refers to Choux pastry, or "Pâte à choux", a sweet confection. The best translation would be "My little sweetie" or some similar, NOT my little cabbage; that's a sort of mistranslation, though common.  The choux pastry has it etymological roots in the word for cabbage, but the usage as a term of endearment comes not directly from cabbage, but from the desert instead.  -- Jayron  32  05:58, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, and in that case, the (correct) literal translation works fine. I'd think comparing a woman to a sweet confection would have a similar interpretation in just about any language. StuRat (talk) 07:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Isn't there enough context to whittle down the many things to a short list of a few? If they were speaking Bulgarian instead of English, uttering this phrase literally would have been a nonsensical and foolish thing to do, at the very best. --Theurgist (talk) 05:18, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about that ? I would expect that such a general expression (referring to a woman as a small feline) would have similar meanings in many languages.  In English, if you made it "lioness", "jaguar", or "leopard", would it change the meaning ?  I don't think so.  This is a clue that it's not a very specific expression.   StuRat (talk) 06:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * These kind of phrases are more difficult to translate due to culture rather than language. The best option in this case is to make a literal translation. If you are going to write it down in an article, then perhaps you should also give a little context of the situation in order to better understand the phrase. If you're just translating the phrase as part of a video, then just include the literal translation (the viewer should get the picture if they've seen the whole thing up to that point). Best regards.-- MarshalN20 | T a l k 06:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * @StuRat: Now that you mention it, "tigress" and "lioness" (but not usually "little tigress/lioness", and not usually "female jaguar/leopard") indeed imply a meaning in Bulgarian, but this meaning is something very closely approximating to "sex machine" - a grossly improper thing for a TV show jury member to say to a contestant. Literal translation won't do. --Theurgist (talk) 08:33, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Little tiger" also implies a certain sexual meaning in English. Comparing people to animals often has this minor issue. For example, calling someone a "rhinoceros" might imply the person being strong and heavily protected (a compliment); however, it can also mean the person being extremely obese (an insult). Added that Simon is known for not saying the most "TV appropiate" things to contestants (or people by that matter). The solution here is to provide a full context of why this phrase is being used, hence allowing the reader to decide on their own the meaning of Simon's statement.-- MarshalN20 | T a l k 14:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Having watched the video (and being a native English speaker), I think Cowell was referring to Susan Boyle's feisty nature. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 09:08, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It may also be an allusion to the line "But the tigers come at night with their voices soft as thunder" in the song she sang (2:46 in the video). Pais (talk) 12:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A bit too subtle, I think. :-) — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:59, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have to say that I don't think it is coincidental that "tiger" is mentioned in the lyrics of the song that Susan Boyle sang and it is a "tiger" that is referenced in that question. Simon Cowell is I think creating a link back to her performance. It is a way of saying that "your words still reverberate within me." It is in this way a compliment. Bus stop (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm with JackLee here; it's a gameshow for proles, not a poetry recital. Alansplodge (talk) 16:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

What Kansan college offers online Japanese courses?
Yes, I tried Google, but it gives me a hard time finding one.

To meet requirements for SRS college tuition assistance, I need to find an online section for Japanese IV that is offered from any college/university in the state of Kansas. As SRS is a state assistance organization, I don't think they'll pay for an online course that originates from out-of-state.

Hopefully anyone of yo uis a better searcher, so please report back. Thanks. --70.179.163.168 (talk) 13:31, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure there are any. There are not even that many schools in Kansas that offer classroom Japanese IV, much less online... r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * ● You can try the following resources.
 * University of Kansas Libraries at University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS
 * Ask a Librarian - KU Libraries


 * Kansas State University Libraries at Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS
 * K-State Libraries - Services - Ask a Librarian


 * Wichita State University Libraries at Wichita State University, Wichita, KS
 * WSU Libraries-Ask! a librarian
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * University library pages are not really going to help someone find course listings. For what it's worth, I know for a fact that University of Kansas doesn't have online Japanese courses. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 03:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You can also try these resources.
 * College & University Search Engines.
 * EducationUSA - Search for Colleges and Universities
 * —Wavelength (talk) 06:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of "Koyaanisqatsi"
So we all know that Koyaanisqatsi is purported to be a Hopi word meaning "Life out of balance" or one of the other several meanings that the filmmakers put on the title card at the end of the film, but it has occurred to me that I haven't ever seen this independently verified. All the definitions I have seen on the Web just echo what the filmmakers claim it means.

Has anyone independently verified (a) that "Koyaanisqatsi" is a word; (b) its meaning, and (c) that it's spelled correctly? Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Koyaanisqatsi cites the Hopi Dictionary, which seems to be a reliable source, as listing koyaanis- "chaotic" and qatsi "life". Pais (talk) 17:45, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * So a rough translation would be "All jacked up"? :-)  67.169.177.176 (talk) 19:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A "rough translation" can't really be given except by someone who knows more about Hopi word-formation. koyaanis- and qatsi may mean "chaotic" and "life" respectively, but that doesn't necessarily mean that koyaanisqatsi means "life out of balance" or even "chaotic life" in native, natural-sounding Hopi. As yet we just have to take it on the director's word. Cevlakohn (talk) 02:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Lists of words with ʊ and ʌ
I'd like to compile a list of all English words (or better yet, only the common words, or only the short words) containing /ʊ/ (as in foot) or /ʌ/ (as in strut). How can I do this - is there a way to get this information out of Wiktionary, for instance? I tried searching for ʊ, but that only returns the pages on which it appears in isolation. Card Zero (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can tell you one thing, this will be a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG task to accomplish... 67.169.177.176 (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really, if you attack it systematically, and only with single syllable roots. For instance, /bʌC(C)/ in GenAm:  bub, buck, bud, budge, buff, bug, bulk, bum, bump, bun, bung, bunk, bunt, bus, bust, but, butt, Butz, buzz.  Keep in mind also that not all dialects undergo foot-strut split. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * What about the words that contain those sounds in the last syllable, such as "halibut"? 67.169.177.176 (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The OP said short wirds. And, FYI, halibut as spoken (['hælɨbɨt] or ['hælɨbət]) doesn't actually contain either sound.
 * Google search for {phonetic word search} threw up http://www.benbriedis.com/phonetic/search.php . I have never used it, and have no idea how good it is, but it might be worth a poke. 86.179.1.163 (talk) 20:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * At Wiktionary, you can start with wikt:Rhymes:English:Stressed on /ʊ/ and wikt:Rhymes:English:Stressed on /ʌ/ and the pages linked to from them. Pais (talk) 21:02, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice links, thank you both. (The phonetic word search tool seems to work very well!) Card Zero  (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)