Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 August 7

= August 7 =

Japanese narration of Tsunami video
This Youtube video is said to be from a dash cam on a car swept up by the Japanese tsunami of 2011. Why was a dashcam filming? Was there someone in the car, and did he survive? What is the basic story the narrator is relating? Thanks! Edison (talk) 00:45, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know why there was a camera filming in the car. There are captions at the top, and on the right I can make out 'camera', but it's bad quality and hard to see. Somebody was driving the car, of course, but whether he/she survived is not said. The narrator does repeat the person's name over and over (Muroga-san?). The basic story that the narrator tells is simply what is happening on screen, about the first moment the ground shook, then the water creeping up, and the car being swept away, one person trying to escape from his car, and finally the car with the camera ending up inside a building and sinking. -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:04, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There was a wo/man called Muroga in the car. I think s/he survived. The narrator said "Muroga thought to get out of the car and opened a window at that time" at 2:44. If Muroga did not survived, the narrator would not have known what Muroga thought and did. The car might be a taxi. Some of them have a dashcam. Oda Mari (talk) 02:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I heard that bit about thinking about getting out of the car, but I wasn't sure if it had just been said for dramatic effect. After all, it seems strange (yet possible) that the person in the car would only think to get out once during the whole four minutes. -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:09, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I wonder if there is any collection of narratives (as opposed to the videos) of survivors who rode out the Tsunami in cars/boats/on rafts of rubble/ in houses? Edison (talk) 02:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I found the full version. Mr. Muroga survived and talked about his experience. He said he got out of the car from the window he opened earlier at about 9:05 as the water came into the car and he swam to a building nearby. Muroga is a self-employed man in Sendai and had the dash cam always on to guard against car break-in. The news was broadcast on June 17. I have no idea if there's any collection of narratives on the web, but a book in ja would be available on Aug. 10. Oda Mari (talk) 15:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Worried about car break-in in northern Japan? interesting view of the crime level in his own country. --Lgriot (talk) 08:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really. As anyone who is self-employed will know, looking after your tools (in this case, the car and/or contents) and making 100% sure they're not nicked, is a top priority. He could be living in the safest neighbourhood in the country, and still he'd be wise to use a layer or two of security. It's just common sense. Besides, there is crime in Japan, and this does include car break-ins and cars being stolen. It's not common, but it happens. -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess my own view of Japan = no crime (especially ouside the big cities) is wrong then. Or maybe it is right, but only in comparison to other countries. --Lgriot (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Crime in Japan may be of interest to you, then :) -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

May "Hot Bird" be translated into other languages?
I mean name, not article. If yes, what's the proper translation into Russian? Can Hot Bird be considered as a synonym for Firebird or not and pls explain why? Thanks! Editor on the Russian Wikipedia Sealle (talk) 03:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want to translate an article from English wikipedia into Russian Wikipedia, see this page (someone check that, I don't read Russian at all). Regarding "Hot Bird", no, I don't believe there is any connection to any of the various definitions of Firebird.  It's a coincidentally similar name.  -- Jayron  32  03:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In particular, I don't think that this name has any connection to the firebird that features in Slavic folklore. The Slavic firebird is unknown to most speakers of English and I think to most western Europeans, who were involved in naming the Hot Bird satellites. If you take a look at the Hot Bird website, you'll see that it emphasizes the "high power" of these satellites.  In English, hot can mean "carrying an electric current".  Bird can be a slang reference to an airplane or any mechanical object in the sky.  I think it would be a mistake to translate Hot Bird as "жар-пти́ца" for this reason.  Therefore, it may be better not to translate this name at all.  Marco polo (talk) 08:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This was very useful. Thank you. Sealle (talk) 03:48, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Azemi
Muslim merchants have been called Azemi in Florence in the late Middle Ages. I can't find this word in any dictionary. May someone recognizes this word as Italian, or borrowed from Arabic عازم or عزیم meaning "bound for" or "departed for"? Many thanks for any help. --Omidinist (talk) 08:12, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This book says it comes from Turkish "Acem," a word for Iranians and Azeris.--Cam (talk) 12:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, Cam. --Omidinist (talk) 13:09, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

"The river"
Quite often when referring to either the Ganges or the Nile, I will hear people say "the river Nile" or "the river Ganges". And although I've never, if memory serves, heard anyone say "the river Mississippi". And Google supports me in this observation.


 * The river Nile - 3.8M Ghits (though this one is likely inflated due to the song/rhyme involving crocodiles on the river Nile)
 * The river Rhine - 2.1M
 * The river Ganges - 1.6M
 * The river Mississippi - 560k
 * The river Missouri - 319k

I threw the Rhine in there too since it popped into my head as another non-US river. I mention it being a non-US river since one of my questions is whether this is done mostly to foreign rivers (from a US perspective) or if other places do this to what they would consider foreign rivers? And my second question is whether there's a better reason for this than just "that's the way it is"? Is this done so as not to confuse the listener who may think that you, the speaker, are referring to a city or country or other place name? Dismas |(talk) 13:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know about foreignness, but the river running through London is "the Thames" or sometimes "the river Thames" (or "the River Thames"?) but never "the Thames River". (I've just realised about the capitalisation too -- always cap "river" if it follows the placemarker; lower case looks more natural if it precedes.) BrainyBabe (talk) 15:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the usual rule of thumb is that the word "River" comes first in British English (River Thames, River Severn) and second in US English (Hudson River, Colorado River). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The Google stats are interesting. I've lived in the USA all my life (so far), and have only ever heard "The Mississippi River" or just "The Mississippi"; likewise for the Missouri. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The river running through Liverpool is called the Mersey, and we locals call it both 'River Mersey' and the 'Mersey River' (though the former is more common). -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The Murray is a major river in Australia. (We don't have all that many.) Most Australians would be comfortable with any of "River Murray", "Murray River", or just "the Murray". Funnily enough, nobody would ever call its longest tributary, the Darling, the "River Darling". HiLo48 (talk) 02:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A related pattern is the use of X Lake vs. Lake X, at least in the US. Most lakes in the US are named in the "X Lake" style. But some very well known lakes are in "Lake X" style—notably the Great Lakes: Lake Ontario, Lake Erie, Lake Huron, Lake Michigan, Lake Superior. I think these lakes acquired their names via French, which had long used the "Lac X" form. But then there are other lakes, like Lake Tahoe and, here in Washington, Lake Chelan. Why exactly this difference arose is a curious question. I've read the notion that once the French-styled "Lake X" was taken for the Great Lakes, the form "Lake X" instead of "X Lake" tended to evoke connotations of largeness and importance. Interesting though that "River X" did not seem to catch on in the US, even though there were plenty of large rivers whose English names were adopted from earlier French names. Pfly (talk) 08:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Part of the difference is that most Old World or at least European river names apply only or primarily to the river itself (or a divinity that personifies it), while very many if not most New World rivers are named for something else, or else named with an adjective. (Many European river names are originally adjectival, but their meanings long forgotten except to philologists.)  It's natural to call Mr Hudson's river the Hudson River, or a red river the Red River, but Seine River is about as natural as Sicily Island. —Tamfang (talk) 05:41, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Questions or statements
In my above question, should I have used question marks where I did? My "questions" didn't start out with the usual who/what/why/where/etc. So should I have ended them with full stops or question marks? I realize now that I've never been very solid on this point of punctuation. Dismas |(talk) 13:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Both question-marked sentences had a whether in them, amply sufficient to merit the pertinent punctuation mark. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I disagree. There were three sentences with question marks, but only the final sentence was a question.  The other two were statements; that they were statements about questions doesn't mean they're questions, and doesn't change their status as statements.  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  13:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jack -- the first two question marks are incorrect. Looie496 (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear: In ordinary conversation, the first two sentences would certainly be interpreted as something requiring an answer (i.e. as questions). In a practical sense, they're indeed questions.  But not in a grammatical sense.  Because the moment you start out with "My question is whether ...", then grammatically you do not have a question, you have a statement.  It would take only a minute tweak to achieve that, though:  "My question is: Does ....?".  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  19:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Now I'm confused, and I thought I had some fluency here. "In my above question, should I have used question marks where I did?" is a question requiring a question mark, in my understanding. Further "So should I have ended them with full stops or question marks?" is also a question requiring a question mark. I am not seeing "My question is whether ..." anywhere. Can anybody clarify this for me? Bielle (talk) 20:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems my "clarification" was not quite that. The three sentences we're talking about are:
 * (A) I mention it being a non-US river since one of my questions is whether this is done mostly to foreign rivers (from a US perspective) or if other places do this to what they would consider foreign rivers?
 * For these purposes, we can ignore "I mention it being a non-US river since".
 * (B) And my second question is whether there's a better reason for this than just "that's the way it is"? 
 * (C) Is this done so as not to confuse the listener who may think that you, the speaker, are referring to a city or country or other place name?
 * I hope this is clearer now. --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  20:19, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Starting a sentence with "And" (B) was a serious error when I was at school. Roger (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought the words "My above question" referred to the title of this question. "Questons or statements" is, at least, an implied question, I thought. I didn't even consider looking at the immediately preceding set of posts about the rivers. Thanks for the clarification. (I think I need another coffee.) Bielle (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, Bielle, we're here to look after you. :)  But it can be confusing.  "I thought I heard him come in, but did my ears deceive me?" - is this a question or not?  It starts out as a statement then morphs into a question.  So is the whole utterance a question or not?  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  23:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * In psychology, we learn that "but" negates or sets aside all that precedes it. Thus, in "I love you, but ...", the only part that matters is what follows the "but". On no other evidence, except for a gut feel, I would say that since what follows the "but" is a question, the whole sentence requires a question mark. Bielle (talk) 23:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Spirit in the Sky
Great song - but only decades later I realize that for this (religious) theme the word for the scientific Sky is used (and not Heaven!). The article states nothing. How is this percieved by native speakers? Do I see spirits where there aren't any? Just for the rhyme? Grey Geezer 14:28, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Spirit and sky is an example of alliteration. 92.24.133.68 (talk) 15:29, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And in some languages "heaven" and "sky" are synonymous. "Ciel" in French, for example. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. German background "Himmel" is the same - but more so, why chose sky? Alliteration + rhyme + "gives them something to tink" would make sense, right? Grey Geezer 17:25, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Finnish certainly has the same word for both: "taivas". The only possible difference is that in Christian contexts, the word for Heaven might be capitalised: "Taivas". J I P &#124; Talk 21:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Carlos Castaneda (I was 16, okay?) once reported failing to get Don Juan to specify whether by cielo he meant the blue stuff or God's home – or indeed to understand the question. —Tamfang (talk) 04:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I have always seen this song as a bit sarcastic; I think "spirit in the sky" is intended to sound a bit funny. Looie496 (talk) 16:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There may well be some sarcasm in that song. However, "sky" and "heaven" (or "the heavens") are synonymous. And "sky" is often used as a joking metaphor for afterlife, for example, "the cowboy has gone to that great ranch in the sky." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The song "Sky Pilot" by The Animals is about a priest, or someone who guides you to heaven, literally a "sky pilot" (using the word "pilot" in the nautical sense of someone who navigates the ship into its destination). -- Jayron  32  18:54, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Then there was Milton Berle, sponsored by Texaco, airing opposite Bishop Sheen. Miltie said, "We both work for the same boss: Sky Chief!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The use of "sky" for "heaven" in English is usually meant to be either humorous, jocular or mocking/pejorative, depending on context. For those who are uncomfortable with any kind of humor or jocularity in their worship, it may be seen as blasphemous. In the song, it's meant to be jocularly informal. I'm sure it deeply offended some of my fellow Christians, but I loved it then as I love it now. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  21:07, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * EO points out that "heaven" or "heavens" as "sky" is ancient, and also note the term "firmament", i.e. the dome that the ancients thought covered the earth. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Modulation in American accents
Am I right in thinking that male American voices are usually or often modulated with a deep frequency? I hear this in American accents, but I don't notice this in British accents, or in sound clips of the Boston Brahmin accent mentioned above.

It may be an attempt to make a male voice sound very deep, which British males don't seem to care about. A higher-pitched version spoken by women and some men may account for the nasal buzz I also hear. What I recall of Morgan Freeman speaking in movies, for example, has this low-frequency modulation. 92.24.133.68 (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can agree somewhat with what you say. However, for the quintessential British accent and voice, take a listen to Brian Blessed (apologies for the content of his little anecdote). You can't get much deeper than this. -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:50, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Brian Blessed was the first person who popped into my mind when I was reading this post, too :) Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 07:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Brian Blessed's name should be written in ALL CAPS, as well as any quote from him :) -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think BB has a particularly deep vloice, especially for someone with a "Henry VIII" physique, nor can I hear modulation. There were many other clips that KageKora could have chosen. 92.28.240.88 (talk) 10:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever his physique, he is famous specifically for his voice - loud, deep, and booming. And, yes, there were plenty of clips of Brian Blessed, but I chose that one as it had him sitting down and talking more or less without interruption. -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The deep American voice thing is particularly noticable in Hollywood film trailers. I remember seeing one once in a London art house cinema; the voice-over's attempt at pronouncing Gérard Depardieu brought the house down. Alansplodge (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Same with Japanese movie trailers, and the voiceovers on variety shows. These voices are very 'masculine' and are chosen for that reason. Saying all American voices are deep just because the ones on TV and in the movies are deep would be like saying all American women look like Pamela Anderson. They are chosen specifically because they have certain cosmetic qualities that the film/TV company wants. Going on to YouTube and listening to the countless whiny 'OH MY GAAAHD' voices does seem to contradict the OP's conclusion that Americans tend to have deep voices. -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * James Earl Jones Broba (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand "modulation" here. To me it means variation in pitch.  Does a voice seem lower if its pitch varies more?  I would not expect it to. —Tamfang (talk) 03:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Icelandic translation needed
I and my father recently visited Iceland. We went on a hiking trail near Hveragerði, where the tourist guide said was a place where we could bathe in a stream resulting from the combination of a common mountain stream and a stream coming from a hot spring. We managed to get to the stream and bathe in it, and it was a pleasant experience. However, the actual hiking trail was longer and more difficult than what we had expected. I photographed a sign showing the hiking trails. It contained this text shown in this picture. The hiking trail we were on was marked in red. What does the text say? <font color="#CC0000">J <font color="#00CC00">I <font color="#0000CC">P &#124; Talk 20:04, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Google Translate has Icelandic in its list of languages, so that might get you started. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * For the first red path it gives "Rather easy and short hiking trail leading from the parking to the main hiking trail", and the headings seem to name the routes and describe the colours used to mark them (rauðar=red, svartar=black, etc, "-ar" marking the plural, I think). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:11, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You might like to drop a message to the (sole) user who identifies as an Icelandic-to-English translator on the en WP, who can be found here. Tonywalton Talk 16:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You might also like to update the list of countries where you've been on your userpage :) --Theurgist (talk) 17:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks for reminding me. <font color="#CC0000">J <font color="#00CC00">I <font color="#0000CC">P &#124; Talk 20:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * By the way, earlier today I worked on typing the text with its correct Icelandic characters, so it can be copied and pasted elsewhere.

MEGINGÖNGULEIÐIR - BLÁAR LEIÐIR

Fremur auðveldar gönguleiðir, sem liggja þvert yfir Hengilssvæðið og tengja saman aðkomustaði og áhugaverða áningarstaði. TENGILEIÐIR - RAUÐAR LEIÐIR

Fremur auðveldar og stuttar gönguleiðir sem liggja frá bílastæðum að megingönguleiðum.

BRATTAR LEIÐIR - SVARTAR LEIÐIR

Fremur erfiðar útsýnisleiðir sem liggja jafnan um brattar fjallshlíðar og hæstu fjöll.

FRÆÐSLUSTÍGAR - GRÆNAR LEIÐIR

Styttri gönguleiðir þar sem komið verður fyrir upplýsingapóstum um náttúru og sögu einstakra staða.

VARÐAÐAR LEIÐIR

Á Hellisheiði eru varðaðar leiðir sem liggja frá sæluhúsi Landsbjargar. Önnur er gömul þjóðleið sem liggur um Hellisskarð, hin liggur styðstu leið að Skarðsmýrarfjalli.

KROSSGÖTUR

vegprestar, sem sýna vegalengdir til næstu áningarstaða.


 * I can understand many individual words in it, but that's only because of my knowledge of Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, and a basic understanding of the Icelandic grammar, so I wouldn't dare give it a translation on my own. --Theurgist (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Google Translate gives this:

THE MAIN HIKING - LEADING BLUE

Relatively easy trails that cross the Hengill area and connect input places and transit sites of interest.

Connecting the router - RED MEANS

A relatively easy and short trails leading from parking lots to the main trails.

Soon routes - LEADING BLACK

Rather extreme view leads which are usually steep cliffs and high mountains.

Learning trail - GREEN MEANS

Shorter trails where there will be information on the topics of natural history and natural disaster.

milestones WAYS

In Hellisheiði are concerned ways that go from hut Landsbjörg. Another is the old national route passing the cave pass, lies the path to Use Placement Skarðsmýrarfjalli.

crossroads

vegprestar, showing distances to the nearest transit point.


 * So every colour except black is "easy". From my experience, the red trail wasn't very easy. In Finland, trail colours generally go from easiest to hardest: green, blue, red, black. <font color="#CC0000">J <font color="#00CC00">I <font color="#0000CC">P &#124; Talk 19:52, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I extended the machine translation to the end, and corrected some errors both in my typing and in the machine translation it yielded. --Theurgist (talk) 00:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)