Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 August 9

= August 9 =

'...saying that the UK is policed "by consent".'
Shouldn't that be 'policed by consensus'? Policed by consent means to me, people have to agree to be policed... (Although right now I have the impression that only those who agree to be policed are being policed, i.e. policed by consent) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.125.105 (talk) 10:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind the phrase "by consent of the governed". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Consensus' means 'in agreement that we are all have the same opinion'. 'Consent' means 'agreement to allow something to happen'. 'Policed by consensus' would mean 'we all agree that it is a fact we are all being policed', whereas, 'Policed by consent' means 'we have all agreed to be policed'. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  15:35, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * That is indeed what the phrase means, and is indeed how the UK police generally works. What the mob are demonstrating is a reminder of this: when a couple of hundred people decide they are no longer going to do what they are told and respect the police, there is actual not much the police can do to contain them. The police need a certain percentage of the population in a given area to consent to being policed, because they do not have the strength and power to police the population against their will. We generally like this, since we don't generally consider it a good thing for the police to be able to overpower the whole country should they choose to. You can see it when people talk about being glad to see police when they're out drinking, not just to protect them from other people but to make sure they themselves don't get out of hand (I have honestly heard this expressed: men saying they stay out of trouble because the cop is there to keep an eye on things and make sure they don't get out of hand). 86.164.56.34 (talk) 15:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, despite recent developments with the Police doing whatever certain people want depending on the price, I tend to think of the verb 'to police' as including the idea of 'protect', and not just crime prevention. I certainly would consent to being protected, even if I don't think I will get drunk one night and glass a stranger because he looked at my wife wrong. I believe this is what 'policed by consent' means, even if it's not explicit. Or maybe I just extend my Wikipedian vow of AGF too far, but that is how I understand the phrase, to keep this thread to its linguistic theme. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  15:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In the U.S., we say that police are considered "public servants", with the meaning that their core purpose is to serve the interests of the public. If you are from a western democracy, this seems like a natural, common sense thing.  However, in many parts of the world (see Syria, for a recent example), the police clearly exist solely as an arm of the government, and their main job is to enforce government policy and interests; rather than to serve the interests of the public, without prejudice.  The phrase "police by consent" isn't known in the U.S., AFAIK, but it sounds like the spirit is much the same as the idea of policing as a form of public service.  -- Jayron  32  01:53, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

My OR on this was that while police in the US are armed and thus they police by threat of force, in Britain things are different. μηδείς (talk) 02:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

This editorial confirms my assumption. μηδείς (talk) 17:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Sound like Wallace and Gromit
What does it mean? (when applied by a Briton to a group of teachers). 193.153.125.105 (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you haven't watched Wallace and Gromit, I suggest you watch some of it, to see what it's about. Without more context (which may or may not have been apparent to those present when this remark was made), we can seriously only guess. 'One absent minded guy leading a [bunch of] slave[s] (who turn out to be far smarter than him)'? --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  15:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Taken literally, Gromit doesn't speak, and Wallace has a Northern England accent.--Shantavira|feed me 16:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

German possessive
I'm trying to revive my German skills, and am reading Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in German (Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen) in an attempt to practice extracting information from long text without looking everything up. However, I am puzzled by a construction that pops up a few times, like this:

Es war Harrys bester Morgen seit langem.

Now, I can easily see what this means, but is this actually a cromulent way to form the possessive in German (adding 's' on the end of a name, similar to the English)? Is this only for names, and is it basically-sort-of equivalent to the possessive pronouns (meines meiner meines, etc)? Or is this only because I am reading a translation of English into German, so it is using something close to an English construction for 'flavour'? 86.164.56.34 (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This is indeed the way for proper nouns. To add English flavor, we now also officially have the "Deppenapostroph" (moron's apostophe)]. Apparently the 2006 edition of Duden now allows us to spell it "Harry's bester Morgen", see the article I linked to. It's in English. Aha, German Wikipedia even has an article on Apostrophitis. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks very much. So it's always an 's' on the name, and I don't have to worry about gender? This seems obvious, now I think about it, but my German is very rusty. 86.164.56.34 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Not quite, sorry for ranting, back to your actual question: For possessive genitive, the letter "s" is added to proper nouns (Eigennamen) (Harry >> Harrys), unless the proper noun already ends in a sibilant in which case an apostrophe should be added (Jens, Klaus, Asterix >> Jens' Haus and Klaus' Haus and Asterix' Haus). In older texts, sometimes the awkward suffix "-ens" was added ("Klaus" >> "Klausens Haus", "Asterixens Haus" ? Well ... you do find "Marxens Methoden" and "Formulierung der ökonomischen Hypothesen Marxens", in the German article on Dialektik bei Marx und Engels). Often the construction "das Haus von Klaus" is used to avoid the oddness of Klaus' Haus. But yes, you don't need to worry about gender or number. ---Sluzzelin talk  16:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Das Haus von Klaus. Oh, what the good Dr. Geisel could have done with that. --Trovatore (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, very helpful. It's quite interesting finding holes like this in what we were taught in school. :) 86.164.56.34 (talk) 20:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you add an apostrophe to Klaus, Jens, or Asterix, does it change the pronunciation at all? Thanks, Falconus p t   c 04:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. That might be a reason why "Klausens" isn't all that uncommon in spoken German. A friend of mine is married to a Klaus and she always says "Klausens".--Zoppp (talk) 07:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

If I might ask a follow-up question of my own: is it equally valid to add an s to feminine nouns? i.e. is "Hermiones bester Morgen" okay? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:36, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is. "Etwas anderes kam hinzu, Clarissa's Existenz zu verwirren." (Thomas Mann, Doktor Faustus; Mann used an apostroph. It was not unusual before 1901, cf. books like E. T. A. Hoffmann's Gesammelte Schriften). Or just have a look at Wikipedia articles, e. g. here: "Marias Vorfahren" (Maria's ancestors) etc.--91.12.220.105 (talk) 12:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Brief clarification or correction regarding my claim (paraphrased from german.about.com) that Duden 2006 allowed for apostrophes separating proper names from the possessive "s": Checking at Duden online "Apostroph", it looks like this is only permitted in certain cases ("Harry" not being one of them). "Not as a mark of omission, but for clarification of a proper name's basic form, the apostrophe is occasionally used [...] before the genitive". Examples "Andrea's Blumenecke (to distinguish from the male first name Andreas)" and "Willi's Würstchenbude" (to distinguish from the English surname Willis?) This is also explained in the German article on Apostrophitis, followed by reports of criticism based on rate and flow of reading and typeface aesthetics. ---Sluzzelin  talk  02:22, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hermione Granger is called Hermine in the German translation, so it would be Hermines bester Morgen. The -ens ending is also seen on feminine nouns, replacing an -e or -a of the nominative, like Herminens or Mariens, though I think it's kind of old-fashioned. The Virgin Mary gets her Latin genitive (slightly respelled for German): this coming Monday is Mariä Himmelfahrt. It is possible to have preposed genitive of common nouns too, though it's not as common. Das ist meines Vaters Auto is grammatical, though people are more likely to say Das ist das Auto meines Vaters or Das ist das Auto von meinem Vater. Pais (talk) 17:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

There are special genitve forms which are still in use. Especially, the genitive form of Jesus Christus is Jesu Christi. In traditional German texts the dative form Jesu Christo and the accusative form Jesum Christum can also be found. In these cases, the declension of Christus is equal to the Latin declension. -- Irene1949 (talk) 15:59, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Urdu help
About http://www.houstonisd.org/Multilingual/Home/Parent%20Resources/Parent%20Guidebooks/ParentGuideUrdu.pdf

On page 2 it mentions the Hattie Mae White Educational Support Center - What are the urdu characters used in the translation of the building name?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you're asking, but the phrase in brackets immediately above the name in English is the Urdu transliteration of the name. It's written purely phonetically, not translated, and read from right to left. --Xuxl (talk) 15:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If it's a transliteration, that's fine. I would like someone to type in the transliteration on here so I can post it on the commons. Also I would like to have the transliteration of "Houston Independent School District" that this document uses, as it may be different from the transliteration in another HISD document. Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as the Urdu characters go, the name of the center is ﮨيٹی مئے وﮨائٹ ايجوكيشنل سپورٹ سنٹر and the name of the school district is ﮨوسٹن آزاد اسكول ضلع --Cam (talk) 01:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! WhisperToMe (talk) 22:39, 11 August 2011 (UTC)