Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 December 10

= December 10 =

A few thousand or A few thousands?
Which is correct to say "A few thousand" or "A few thousands"? SuperSuperSmarty (talk) 00:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * "A few thousand" sounds more correct to my ear. You wouldn't say "a few thousands dollars." --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * But we would say "many thousands of dollars". I suppose you could contrive a context for "a few thousands of dollars", but it's not really normal language.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  00:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * ... unless, of course, you were talking about thousand-dollar  currency, or other discrete units of thousands, when it would be normal to say "A few thousands".    D b f i r s   08:26, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It's funny, but I would say a few thousands is more correct, grammatically - you see similar in 19th century writing and earlier - but as the 'of' eroded away, so did the plural; I reckon it's manifest vestigially in the phrase 'myriads of'. Adambrowne666 (talk) 06:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-Chinese lyrics in the Chinese song 高山青
In the Chinese song 高山青, there's a line in the lyrics that's not (Han) Chinese. Supposedly the song was adapted from a folk song of some indigenous Taiwanese tribe. Does anyone know what the non-Chinese lyrics say, assuming that it means something in some language? --108.2.210.109 (talk) 00:16, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

So much have changed or So much has changed?
Which is more correct to say?


 * So much has changed


 * So much have changed

SuperSuperSmarty (talk) 01:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * 'So much has changed' is correct. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * See the definition and the example at wikt:much. You need a singular verb here: has ("it has"). You will need the plural verb have ("they have") in the sentence "So many have changed", where "many" refers to multiple people/animals/objects/things. --Theurgist (talk) 01:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I personally hate how so many people are starting to use "much" as the default when referring to large quantities. Inter  change  able | talk to me  00:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * For this relief, much thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Translation from English to German, please?
Can someone kindly tell me how to write the following sentence in fluent, colloquial German?

I have enjoyed having you living here and hope you continue through 2012.

Thank you in advance. Gurumaister (talk) 11:58, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Continue what? Living there? --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I had hoped/assumed that that was fairly obviously implied - no? If not then please re-word it as is most appropriate in German. Gurumaister (talk) 12:59, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * et haat me gefreet daat du hast met uns gelebt, un ech hoffe daat du wellst en 2012 met uns leben. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] This is luxembourg german. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And in Standard German: Es hat mich gefreut, dass du hier gewohnt hast und ich hoffe, du wohnst hier weiter durch 2012 hindurch. Angr (talk) 13:49, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Nitpick: I don't think any native German speaker would say "durch 2012 hindurch". It's understandable, but sounds wrong to me. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you - to both of you. I am grateful. Gurumaister (talk) 14:20, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * To avoid using "wohnen" twice, you could rephrase the second part of the sentence to read: ...und ich hoffe dass du auch 2012 dableiben willst. This would translate as "and I hope you would want to stay on in 2012".


 * ...or even more colloquially: "...ich hoffe, dass du auch 2012 bleibst". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * All this assumes that you want to use the informal "du" and not the formal "Sie" in addressing the person. See T–V distinction (which, somewhat oddly, does not mention the German usage).  --Incognito.ergo.possum (talk) 22:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Or maybe Gurumaister wishes to address multiple people informally? This will require the usage of the informal plural "ihr", as well as the verbs to be conjugated accordingly. --Theurgist (talk) 22:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So, to summarize, if you are addressing this to an individual with whom you are on a first-name basis, you would say:
 * Es hat mich gefreut, dass du hier gewohnt hast, und ich hoffe, dass du auch 2012 bleibst.
 * If you are addressing more than one person with whom you are on a first-name basis:
 * Es hat mich gefreut, dass ihr hier gewohnt habt, und ich hoffe, dass ihr auch 2012 bleibt.
 * Finally, if this is a person or persons whom you call "Mr./Ms. So-und-so":
 * Es hat mich gefreut, dass Sie hier gewohnt haben, und ich hoffe, dass Sie auch 2012 bleiben.
 * Marco polo (talk) 02:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 2012 in spoken Hochdeutsch is zwei tausend und zwölf. Sleigh (talk) 05:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to you all - I am really very grateful. Gurumaister (talk) 15:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

OSVAH
(moved from helpdesk  Chzz  ►  12:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC))

I want to know about the Meaning of Arabic Word OSVAH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.254.223.161 (talk) 12:15, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It means leader and role model. --Omidinist (talk) 18:08, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Omidinist -- What is the Arabic alphabet spelling of the word that you think the questioner may have had in mind? -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * اسوه ‍Omidinist (talk) 04:54, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, but the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic defines اسوة as "example, model, pattern". I was looking in an Arabic-English dictionary under "leader", and having a difficult time finding anything that could correspond to OSVAH... AnonMoos (talk) 16:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * But اسوة is not the same as اسوه (because tāʾ marbūṭa is not the same as hāʾ). --Theurgist (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, is the initial hamza a hamzat waṣl? Because if it's not, it has to appear as a diacritic: أسوه . --Theurgist (talk) 22:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * However, the dictionary does not list اسوه and اسوة is defined under root ا س و, which means that an ه would not really be expected as a non-inflectional consonant there. Omidinist knows more Arabic than I do, but he seems to be a Persian native-language speaker, and Persians are sometimes hazy on ة (which is not used in writing the Persian language).  The dictionary does not list word-initial hamzas, as discussed on the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic page, but looking in another, smaller dictionary I have here, it should have a hamza above if pronounced uswa and a hamza below if pronounced iswa (or [ʔuswa] and [ʔiswa] if you want to be more strict IPA). AnonMoos (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Since OP knew the pronunciation (OSVAH) almost correctly -- though it's actually USWA -- I felt that I didn't need to go that far. By the way, finding correctly placed hamzas for Arabic letters in keyboards and fonts is really hard and takes time. Thanks for comments, anyway. --Omidinist (talk) 04:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Word for someone who doesn't believe in free will
What word describes someone who does not think that anything macroscopic objects such as humans do is actually caused by any will of the humans themselves, but is only attributable to the laws of physics governing the particles of which they are made, and that out of the resultant complexity emerges an illusion of independence from the fundamental laws governing the particles of which they are made? 69.243.220.115 (talk) 13:06, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hard determinism?  Chzz  ► 13:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ...which sounds like an extreme version of Calvinism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Except that hyper-Calvinism doesn't attribute actions to the laws of physics governing the particles of which humans are made. Angr (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hard determinism is probably the right answer. Let me note that Free will is a featured article on Wikipedia, and gives a pretty nice explanation of the various possible points of view. Looie496 (talk) 17:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Fatalist. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Translation problems
hello,

I recently want to translate the following sentence from German to English:


 * "In der schmutzigen, armseligen, von Gott und der Stadt vergessenen Malaja-Grusinskaja-Straße erhebt sich das wunderschöne, hoch künstlerische Massiv der neuen römisch-katholischen Kirche, geweiht der Heiligen Jungfrau Maria"

I would translate it as follows:


 * "Amidst the dirty, pathetic, forgotten Malaja Grusinskaja street by God and city, a beautiful, higly artificial massief was raised for the newly-built Roman Catholic church, dedicated to the Holy Virgin Mary"

But can I write


 * "Amidst the dirty, pathetic, by God and city forgotten Malaja Grusinskaja street, a beautiful, higly artificial massief was raised for the newly-built Roman Catholic church, dedicated to the Holy Virgin Mary"

I have to say I have no clue... help would appreciate. Thanks.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 16:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * How about "In the filthy, wretched Malaja Grusinskaja Street, forgotten by God and the city, there rose the gorgeous artistic solidity of the new Roman Catholic church, dedicated to the Holy Virgin Mary"? Deor (talk)
 * Excellent. Thanks! =)-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 17:08, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also localize the transliteration of Russian and write "Malaya Gruzinskaya Street". Angr (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Instead of "forgotten by God and the city", I'd up it a notch to "forsaken by God and the city". BrainyBabe (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Vergessen = forgotten, verlassen = forsaken. 93.95.251.162 (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC) Martin.

Exemplary language usage by websites
Which websites are exemplary for their language usage, by avoiding profanity, slang, relaxed pronunciation, filler words, and errors in grammar, spelling, word usage, pronunciation, and punctuation?

The websites can be mainstream media websites, alternative media websites, or other websites. They can be in English or another language, or be multilingual websites.

(This post begins with a one-sentence paragraph, and ends with a one-sentence paragraph.) —Wavelength (talk) 17:34, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Since most websites are available in written form only, I don't think the criterion of avoiding "relaxed pronunciation" is going to be relevant very often. Angr (talk) 18:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree it is an odd wording: note the repetition of "pronunciation". Also, written text is unlikely to have filler sounds, words, or phrases (um, yeah, youknowwhatImean). If you seek good prose, look no further than our Featured Articles. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The first was "relaxed pronunciation", the second was "errors in ... pronunciation".
 * A website that has no errors of any of the above kinds would truly be a wonder to behold. -- Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:23, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In my experience, the websites using the "best" English would be the news services from the BBC and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Of course, that choice reflects my bias, and won't satisfy the user's needs if he/she is looking for American spelling. And I must make the point that language is ever changing. To paraphrase an old saying "One decade's slang and profanity is another decade's mainstream language. The same principle applies across the globe. What I regard as powerful, effective language would probably horrify some conservative American Christians or the like. But maybe my suggestions are a start. HiLo48 (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

How do you differentiate who's who when there are more than one person with the same last name in a family?
Let's say there is a family of three boys and two girls. Their names are Albert Carruthers, Herbert Carruthers, Ferdinand Carruthers, Diana Carruthers, and Anne Carruthers. If you want to refer to Albert Carruthers formally, then you would say "Master Carruthers" if he is single or "Mister Carruthers" if he is married, right? If you want to refer to Anne Carruthers, then you would say "Miss Carruthers" or "Miss Anne", or if the woman is married to Mr. GoodlyTwoShoes, then you say "Mrs. GoodlyTwoShoes", right? Now, how do you differentiate who's who? It would too confusing to say two "Miss Carruthers" or the three "Master Carruthers". How does one know who's who?

I am told that the girls in Pride and Prejudice are "Miss [insert-first-name-here]", except the first one. The firstborn or oldest unmarried daughter is called "Miss Bennet", and the rest are referred to by their first names and title, "Miss".

Does this pattern apply to males as well?

SuperSuperSmarty (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, Albert Carruthers is Mr. Carruthers whether he's married or not as long as he's older than about 10 or 11. At his workplace, if he needs to be distinguished from younger male family members, he's "the elder Mr. Carruthers" or "Mr. Carruthers senior". (Remember Young Mr. Grace from Are You Being Served?) At home, the servants call the father Mr. Carruthers, and the sons Master Albert, Master Herbert and Master Ferdinand until they're about 10 or 11, when they get promoted to Mister Albert, Mister Herbert and Mister Ferdinand. The mother is Mrs. Carruthers, the eldest daughter is Miss Carruthers, and the younger daughter is Miss Anne at home, to the servants, since she needs to be disambiguated, but outside the home to people who know her on her own terms and don't know her elder sister, she is Miss Carruthers. This means the eldest daughter is the only child who gets called by her last name at home. Angr (talk) 23:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * "Miss Anne Carruthers" and "Master/Mr. Ferdinand Carruthers" are always options as well. If you are taking Pride and Prejudice as a model, note that, as Angr says, it depends on who is talking. The eldest daughter is referred to as "Jane" or "Miss Bennet" by the narrator, "Jane" by her family, and "Miss Bennet" by non-relatives (never "Miss Jane"). Elizabeth, the main character, is called "Elizabeth" by the narrator, "Lizzy" by her family, and "Miss Bennet", "Miss Elizabeth", "Miss Eliza", or "Eliza" by non-relatives (in increasing order of familiarity). Lesgles (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Does anyone still use this terminology? It sounds terribly old-fashioned to my American ears, though I must admit that I have never had household servants.  In most households, I think in both the United States and Britain, children are called by their first names, no "master" or "miss".  A formal invitation, for example to a wedding, might be addressed to children as "master" or "miss", but I've never heard those terms spoken.  Increasingly these days, particularly in the United States but also increasingly in Britain, even adults are addressed by their first names except in relatively formal situations.  In most workplaces on both sides of the ocean, first names are used among colleagues today.  Marco polo (talk) 02:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No, not used in England now except in some ultra-formal circumstances. Jane Austen uses a rigorous system for naming women and girls, not sure if she is as rigorous for the men and boys. Also, not sure if Austen's system was used by everyone in polite society of her day. And it may have changed some time during the 19th century. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:07, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Jane Eyre is called "Miss Jane" by a servant at Gateshead Hall. I think the name "Miss Jane" distinguishes her as a relative to the family rather than as an ordinary servant girl, even though she is treated like a servant girl in her own house. In Charles Dickens' day, his male character in A Christmas Carol is Master __________, signifying that the character is young. SuperSuperSmarty (talk) 15:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * At school, the two eldest boys would have been called "Carruthers major" and "Carruthers minor"; if the eldest was still in the school when the youngest joined, he (the youngest) would have been "Carruthers minimus". Alansplodge (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)