Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 December 11

= December 11 =

"Got it" and "my bad"
Sometime in the mid 2000s, I first noticed New Yorkers and then later, people from Los Angeles and San Francisco using "got it" in response to a question that is answered. I'm assuming this comes from popular culture, perhaps a television series or a film, that eventually made its way into normal discourse, but I'm at a loss trying to track it down. Which reminds me, was anyone ever able to track down "my bad"? Viriditas (talk) 08:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Strike "my bad". The phrase was popularized by the 1995 film Clueless.  Which makes perfect sense, because that's about the time I first started hearing it on the streets. Now, someone has to be able to track down "got it" for me, or I won't be able to sleep. Viriditas (talk) 08:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "got it" has been in use in the UK in the sense of "I understand what you say" for as long as I can remember, and certainly since well before the mid 2000s. Is this the usage you are referring to, or is there a distinction I'm not seeing? 81.159.109.15 (talk) 14:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I've been using "got it" myself since at least the early 90s if not earlier.  I'm in the US by the way.  Dismas |(talk) 14:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the expression "get it" is much older. "Get it, got it, good" is a quote from the 1955 film "The Court Jester", but "get it" must have existed long before then to be included in the film dialogue.    D b f i r s   16:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the appeal of "my bad" is the embodiment of what is being expressed in the expression. Saying "my bad" is an admission of error. But "my bad" is also grammatically incorrect. "My bad" is an example of an "error". "Got it" is not a very unusual use of language, I don't think. In response to a physical object tossed and caught the response might be "got it". By analogy a verbal statement understood can be confirmed by the response of "got it" but I don't think that "got it" is such an unusual phrase that we should expect to find a defined time period for its usage. Bus stop (talk) 15:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Saying "my bad" also carries the implication that one is admitting an error, but doesn't care too much about having made it. It's like saying, "OK, I screwed up.  So what?" --Viennese Waltz 16:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I remember reading a discussion of "My bad!" on the linguists' blog Language Log which came to the conclusion that the expression was coined by a (very talented) African basketball player who had come to play in the USA and who was only just learning English. I'm sure a refdesker with more knowledge of the game will be able to guess who the player was, and in any case the blog is searchable (an exercise I leave to readers to encourage them to explore it). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.13 (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That was Manute Bol, supposedly. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * As usual with linguistics study, you have to treat these attempts to track down usage as attempts to rewrite history. Sometimes there is a grain of truth to it. Manute Bol may have said "my bad", but that doesn't mean it caught on. After becoming popular, he may have said, "Hey! I said that a long time ago!" A better example is "Dis" or "Diss". Many people have put a lot of effort into rewriting history to support the claim that it is a short for "disrespect". The problem with that is that the theory that it is short for disrespect came about long after it became popular. So, the goal is to support a probably wrong assumption by cherry-picking any old anecdote that supports the assumption. In the case of "my bad", they are just going through any history they can find and looking for any anecdote that supports their theory. -- k a i n a w &trade; 16:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In instances of folk etymology, that is doubtless often the case, but such a blantantly unscholarly approach is not characteristic of the University professors who post on Language Log - that is rather its point. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.13 (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Three dictionaries I just checked agree that "dis(s)" is short for "disrespect". Why do you think this is wrong, and do you have an alternative theory? 86.183.1.224 (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The word really originated as derogatory comparison to Diss. 213.122.57.84 (talk) 10:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I always assumed "Don't diss me" originally meant "Don't write badly of me in your dissertation". Pais (talk) 12:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The line "I think she's got it" occurs during the "Rain in Spain" scene in the 1965 movie "My Fair Lady". I don't know if it occurs in earlier stage versions or in the precursor, George Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion. Given that the scene is all about speaking correctly, could one assume that it was part of normal speech for British gentlemen in Edwardian times, in which the film is set? HiLo48 (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The verb "to get" meaning "to understand" has been in my vocab since I first acquired language, and I'm 61 now, so that dates it to no later than c. 1954 (cf. The Court Jester from 1955, per Dbfirs above), and I suspect it goes back way, way further than that. We didn't make up these uses of the verb "to get", we learned them from our parents, and it wasn't new to them either. You'd hear a joke that you didn't quite get, and you'd say "I don't get it".  When the penny dropped you'd say "Oh, I get it now".  You'd proudly claim to have got it if it was something the joketeller was not expecting his audience to get.  And not just jokes either.  Your teacher or your parent was explaining something to you, and it was clear from your puzzled look or your verbal response that it didn't make sense, so he/she explained it a different way, and then you'd say "Oh, I get it now".  Just like people still talk.  Nothing new under the sun.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think Viriditas is asking about the use of get to mean "understand" in general. He's asking specifically about saying "Got it" when someone answers a question you've asked them, for example:
 * A: "What is the average yearly rainfall in the Amazon Basin?"
 * B: "Eighty inches."
 * A: "Got it."
 * I strongly doubt that the origin of that usage is traceable, but stranger things have happened. Angr (talk) 19:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If I'm following this correctly, could that usage be a shortened form of "got it in one"? -- LarryMac  | Talk  15:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I doubt it, because "got it in one" implies that A already knows the answer to the question when he asks it and is congratulating B on knowing the right answer. But "Got it" is used when the questioner really doesn't know the answer until the answerer tells him. Angr (talk) 15:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thus my "if I'm following" preface. But since we're apparently not talking about what words mean, this is all venturing too far into Humpty Dumpty land for me, so I'll jump off here.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  15:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's correct, Angr. I pay close attention to word usage in everyday speech and in popular culture in the United States.  Something happened in the mid 2000s that led huge numbers of people here to reply to answers with "Got it".  If I had to guess, it was a film or television program that was responsible.  Because this kind of thing interests me, I would love to know which one it was. Viriditas (talk) 00:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What does "Got it" mean in the above example if not "I understand"? 86.179.7.170 (talk) 01:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We're talking about usage, not meaning. Prior to the mid-2000s, in the states, I had never heard anyone say "got it" in response to an answered question.  Suddenly, somewhere between 2004-2008, I began hearing it everywhere, particularly from people in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.  I suspect that there was a popular television program or film that used it, and somehow, all these people had incorporated it into their daily speech.  As I said above, this is probably similar to how "my bad" spread around the states in 1995 after the film Clueless popularized it.  So, the question at hand is, what made "got it" so popular? Viriditas (talk) 01:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't help with the program or film, but this seems to be a (rare?) example of a British idiom being taken up in America. The reverse is much more common.  What British films or TV series were popular in the States around that time?  The Court Jester was an American film set in Mediaeval England (long before the idiom in reality).  Was it regularly shown on TV in America in the mid-2000s?  I recall the exchange including "got it" being popular in the UK after the release of the film.    D b f i r s   09:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This is off-topic, but another example of a British idiom being taken up in America that I can think of is the recent tendency to call red-haired people "gingers". I think that term is decades old in Britain, but I never heard it from Americans until the South Park episode "Ginger Kids" was aired. Pais (talk) 11:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, probably a century old as in Biggles' friend "Ginger", based on W E Johns' experience in the First World War.   D b f i r s   12:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Odd. Ginger Meggs was an Australian cartoon strip dating from the 1920s (indicating the term is probably even older), yet I can't recall 'ginger' being used as any sort of insult until probably after that South Park episode. Of course the preferred term in Aust today is ranga, but ginger does get a run these days. Historically in Aust, most redheads seemed to get bluey, but it wasn't generally used offensively. --jjron (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I must have been living under a rock or something. I swear the first time I ever heard the word "ranga" was when Julia Gillard became Prime Minister last year.  I'd never heard it used of her in her earlier public career, or of anyone else ever.  But apparently I'm the odd man out, because it's a well-established Australian colloquialism.  The things you learn.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * For me (UK), the only thing I can see that could mark out the Amazon rainfall example above as noteworthy is if "Got it" is used unnecessarily, as a sort of catchphrase perhaps. I might use "Got it" in response to an answer, but only if there was some reason why I had to reassure the other person that I understood (perhaps I had misunderstood previously, or perhaps I have to act on the information and it's important that I get it right). Routine use of "Got it" as an acknowledgement of any answer would be beyond my usage. 109.151.57.40 (talk) 12:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I very rarely watch those things, but I seem to recall seeing an episode of The Apprentice a few years back where "Got it" was used gratingly often as a response to any sort of answer or directive (often enough that I still remember it years later). Of course that may have post-dated it's common adoption on the street in NY, I wouldn't know, but it really stood out to me at the time as a little unusual, and more than a bit annoying, in both the regularity and forcefulness with which it was used. I can't say if it was in very regular usage on the show in general, as that was probably about the only episode of it I ever watched. --jjron (talk) 15:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't recall that case actually, but I do remember one series where use of the expression "step up to the plate" became so excessive that the show even made a little joke compilation around the theme. 86.181.169.64 (talk) 18:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * "Got it" is a way of saying "I understand" which conveys a greater sense of finality than "I understand". What I mean is that when one says "got it", they are indicating that they are not inclined to follow that up with any lengthier and more nuanced explanation, perhaps involving some agreement and some disagreement. "Got it" is a way of saying that I fully comprehend what you just said to the umpteenth degree and I agree with 100% of it. Of course, implicit in such an implication is the very unlikelihood of such complete agreement. Thus what one is conveying when one uses the "got it" locution is that, I agree with you but I haven't really examined what you just said. Bus stop (talk) 18:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Welsh patronimics
Take the Welsh patronimics Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (Llywelyn the Great was a 13th century Welsh ruler). Is there a reason why some secondary sources name him one way ("ab"), and other another way ("ap")? Is one an older form of Welsh, and the other modern Welsh (something like the Irish Ua and later Ó in surnames like Ua Néill and Ó Néill)?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. In modern Welsh it's "ap", but "ab" is an older form. If you look for example at page 10 r. of the White book of Rhydderch you can see "Bendigeiduran uab llyr", modern spelling "Bendigeidfran fab Llyr", English "Bran the Blessed, son of Llyr". The word "uab" (probably pronounced /vab/) is a lenited form of "mab" = "son", but later that word as a patronymic particle lost the initial "v-" and tended to devoice the final consonant to give "ap". Note however, that surnames which preserve the old patronymic are divided over whether they preserve the voiced (Broderick, Bowen) or unvoiced (Pritchard, Pugh) consonant. --ColinFine (talk) 20:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it's "ap" before a consonant and "ab" before a vowel. --Nicknack009 (talk) 20:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Not so - there's plenty of people called Ap Alun for example. Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

This is (I think) a related question, hence using this thread. The Tranmere Rovers goalkeeper is Owain Fôn Williams, who is Welsh, from Caernarfon. But the Fôn part of his name - which is taken as part of his surname, and often with a lower case "f" - is a form that I haven't come across before. Is this a Welsh patronymic like ap, or does it have a different origin? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never come across "Fôn" in a name like that, but the long vowel makes me reasonably sure that it's an ordinary name-word, not a particle like "ap". "Fôn" is the soft mutation of "Môn", which is the Welsh name for Anglesey, so I suspect that is the meaning of the name. --ColinFine (talk) 21:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So sites like this, which tend to use a lower case "f", are presumably wrong to do so. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Fôn is actually a (re-)cymricised spelling of Vaughan (surname) (pronounced more or less the same as Vaughan), which is a fairly frequent surname (and given name) in Wales and the Marches . I can only find this not very good source online to support what I understand to be a moderately well known fact!). Vaughan itself is an anglicised version of the Welsh Fychan (the soft mutated version of bychan which means small) which was presumably originally taken into Middle English when the gh was still pronounced in English. There's a least one other Fôn on Wikipedia, the actor Bryn Fôn. It also occurs in Rachel Davies (Rahel o Fôn), where it does indeed mean "of Anglesey", as also in William Evans (Wil Ifan o Fôn) but I believe these are both adopted bardic names rather than given or inherited names. Valiantis (talk) 02:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking for a word...
Hi, is there a word or term for that feeling you sometimes get when a common word suddenly looks strange and unfamiliar, and becomes more and more strange the more you stare at it? 81.159.109.15 (talk) 14:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Semantic satiation. Previous ref-desk thread here. Deor (talk) 14:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Or more generally it's a variant of jamais vu. Looie496 (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Universally known as...
Hi, I was wondering whether this AdvP is grammatically correct in this context: "Romance languages are the most widely spoken in Spain; of which Castilian, universally known as Spanish, is the country's official language." 85.56.139.82 (talk) 23:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems fine, grammatically speaking. Whether it's factually correct is another matter.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  00:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * how could it sound more less factual, without using the adverb "also known as", or alias? 85.56.139.82 (talk) 00:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you mean less factual? (It already sounds factual enough. The point is that it may not actually be correct.) 86.179.7.170 (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. Then, how would you correct the above mentioned sentence? 85.56.139.82 (talk) 01:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The term "Castilian" sometimes refers to the specific variety of Spanish spoken in parts of Spain (see Castilian Spanish), and is marked by the "Castilian lisp" (see Ceceo) which is somewhat unique to that particular dialect and tends to mark it. Some Spanish speaking countries, in "official" documentation use the term "Castellano" as the name for the Spanish language in general, even if those countries don't speak Castilian Spanish, that is they speak a dialect of Spanish distinct from that spoken in Spain.  Other Spanish speaking countries would only use the term "Castellano" to refer to European Spanish in particular.  The factual accuracy of the statement "Castilian, universally known as Spanish" may be arguable.  It would be better to say "Romance languages are the most widely spoken in Spain; of which Spanish, also known in some contexts as Castilian, is the country's official language."  The Wikipedia article Names given to the Spanish language gives some context to the situation.  -- Jayron  32  05:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't your formulation shift the meaning of the original sentence (which seems perfectly okay to me, but then I'm not a native speaker)? The sentence does not oppose the European dialect to other dialects of Spanish but opposes that language which emerged from the province of Castile (and which came to be known as "Spanish") to other Romance languages spoken in Spain, like Galician or Catalan. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, but for example Mexican Spanish is clearly Spanish, but clearly not Castilian. Galician and Catalan on the other hand are Spanish in the sense that they come from Spain, but they are not the Spanish language.  --Trovatore (talk) 04:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say Castilian Spanish is marked by ceceo (the "lisp"), one trait in some southern parts of Spain, when la distinción is somewhat more representative of it. -- the Great   Gavini  06:42, 13 December 2011 (UTC)