Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 December 14

= December 14 =

Facebook Chinese grammar question
Hey all. I just recently changed my Facebook into Chinese for practice purposes. One of the stories that popped up in my ticker was about someone (say person A) getting tagged in someone else's (say person B's) photo. Here's what it said: "A在B的照片中被圈出来了. " I am confused slightly about the "中被圈出来" part. I'm assuming here that "出来" vaguely refers to the person "appearing" in the photo, and I also know that "中" is center while "圈" is a circle. Are those referring to the physical tagging on the photo? Does "被" here refer to a passive construction? Thank you! — Trevor K. — 03:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * 中is a postposition. The sentence is divided up like this: "A 【在B的图片中】 【被圈出来了】". So, the chunk "在B的图片中" means "in B's picture". The next part, "被圈了出来", means "was tagged". You are correct that 被 is a passive marker; "A 被 B " means "B was verbed by A". 圈 means to encircle (in this case, to 'tag'). 出来 is a directional complement, which you can learn more about by reading our article on Chinese grammar or similar articles; in Chinese, verbs are often followed by complements indicating the direction or result of the action. In this case, 出来 ("come out") suggests, as you expected, 'appearing': literally, the person has been "tagged out" (tagged so that they appear). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 03:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The way it's been phrased is drawing an analogy with a person being literally marked out with a circle on the photo - "圈" (being used for the verb "tag" here) literally means "circle", and can be used for the verb "circle". The "出来" is like the "out" in "A has been marked out".
 * I might add that I find the translation not quite apt or idiomatic. First, "在照片中" is not usual and does not seem to be the right register to use in this context. I would use "里" or "上" instead of "中" - i.e. "在这张照片里" ("in this photo") or "在这张照片上" ("on this photo"). "圈" is "to circle", and is not "to tag". "Tag" is most literally "标", and there doesn't seem to me to be any reason why it shouldn't be used in this context.
 * The passive voice also sounds unnatural in Chinese, but there may be no way of changing that without distorting the meaning too much - especially since the passive formulation seems to deliberately avoid mentioning the person doing the tagging. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The 被 doesn't sound very natural to me either but it seems to be the standard on these social networking sites (I think the notifications for tagging are similar on Renren and Sina Weibo). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 19:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Apostrophe s (possessive)
A question from yesterday got me thinking. It is reasonably well known that the plural of court-martial is courts-martial. Does a similarly unusual rule apply to the possessive apostrophe s? Is it 'the court's-martial prosecuting counsel' or 'the court-martial's prosecuting counsel'? Astronaut (talk) 05:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The latter. I know of no case where an 's is imbedded within a word.
 * An equally (and arguably more) interesting case is the possessive of the plural of a word that forms this type of plural. "We are conducting a review of former governors-general's entitlements".  The 's still goes at the end, even though the plural -s ending goes somewhere other than the end.  --   Jack of Oz  [your turn]  05:45, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact, the 's goes at the end of the entire noun phrase, as in The boy I gave the present to's mother, though that is probably restricted to colloquial spoken English and would be avoided in edited writing. Angr (talk) 07:02, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Or that doozie She and I's mother. (Don't try this at home, or anywhere, ever.)  --   Jack of Oz  [your turn]  19:21, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * As is always the case when there is confusion or ambiguity, most sources would recommend you rewrite the sentence to avoid the apostrophe-s. In the case of the court's-martial/court-martial's issue, rephrase it as "The prosecuting counsel of the court-martial" and then you avoid having to use the awkward construction.  -- Jayron  32  19:31, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Good advice generally. But in this case, there is no ambiguity with "the court-martial's prosecuting counsel" (the counsel for one court-martial).  Nor would there be with "the courts-martial's prosecuting counsel" (the counsel for more than one court-martial).
 * Curiously, if the word did form its plural in the usual way, with the -s at the end, there could be ambiguity in the possessive, as "the court-martial's prosecuting counsel" and "the court-martials' prosecuting counsel" sound exactly the same. But we don't have that problem unless someone decides to "improve" the pluralisation protocol.  Anyone who did that, though, should be spared a court-martial and just stood up against a wall and shot.  --   Jack of Oz  [your turn]  19:52, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * See Me-N-Ed's Pizza. (I am not endorsing this usage.)
 * —Wavelength (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

German grammar: der & er
I'm confused about something in this lyric to an old song:

Und der Haifisch, der hat Zähne. And the shark, he has teeth.

If he = "er" and the = "der" then why is the second part not "er hat Zähne" instead of "der hat Zähne"? Is "der" a definite article here?

Sorry if this is a silly question -- I've just begun trying to learn German. Thanks for any help in advance! This is the song, if that helps. 128.239.41.99 (talk) 05:49, 14 December 2011 (UTC)amorfati
 * It actually means, "And the shark who has teeth". --Viennese Waltz 06:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No, that would be Und der Haifisch, der Zähne hat - and it would sound like it was contrasting with some other shark that didn't have teeth. Der and die can be used more or less synonymously with er and sie in colloquial German. They're a little more emphatic than er and sie and come closer in meaning to "that guy" and "that girl/woman". Using die in the plural to mean "they" is also very common, and is an easy way to make it clear that you're saying "they" rather than the polite "you" form Sie. (For example, if you see a woman taking two cute puppies for a walk and say Die sind so niedlich! ("They're so cute!"), she'll know you're talking about her dogs, whereas if you said Sie sind so niedlich! she might think you were talking about her.) Angr (talk) 06:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 128.239.41.99, your analysis is correct. The only thing you have missed, and simply cannot know if you are a beginner in the language, is that in colloquial German, der is often used instead of er. I don't know if this holds universally, but e.g. it would be unidiomatic to say "Er hat sie ja wohl nicht mehr alle." ("He has really lost them", i.e. his marbles.) In German, "Er hat [ja wohl] nicht mehr alle Tassen im Schrank", i.e. literally he no longer has all cups in the cupboard, and ja wohl is a colloquial affirmation similar to wirklich, really.) If you replace er by der it becomes absolutely standard. This is because hat sie ja wohl nicht mehr alle is an idiomatic expression – but only in colloquial German, which requires the colloquial personal pronoun – at least in this context.
 * To make sense of this you should consider that in many languages including English and German the distinction between personal/demonstrative pronouns and relative pronouns isn't completely clear. E.g. that can be used in both functions, in particular it can be used as a personal pronoun as in "That is the question". Even who can do this, but only after a preceding sentence with relative clause, as in "The man who knew too much. Who was dangerous." Der is the standard German male relative pronoun, so it is not so strange that it can also be used this way. "Der Mann der zuviel wusste. Der gefährlich war." Here the inversion in the second German sentence shows clearly that we think of this as a relative clause. But in colloquial German you would also say, "Der war gefährlich". Hans Adler 07:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Mack the Knife, no link necessary. Well, have one anyway. Rmhermen (talk) 08:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You could say: "Der Haifisch, der Zähne hat, der hat Zähne". The first instance of "der" is an article, the second a relative pronoun and the third a demonstrative. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:29, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Paul is right, that's a demonstrative in German, which is identic to the definite article and the relative pronoun. I can't agree that this is the same as to replace er with der in colloquial speech. --KnightMove (talk) 16:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

See also de:wikt:der for the three variants, der does not list the demonstrative use. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 07:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

More Arabic Help
Hi! Islamic American University has an Arabic name at http://www.islamicau.org/static/Portals/0/iau_logo_university.gif

Would anyone mind typing it in here? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 07:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

It's "الجامعة الإسلامية الأمريكيّة". Adam Bishop (talk) 10:20, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 07:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * A stilistic difference. Albeit the name above is correct, it is written as "الجامعة الإسلامية الأمريكية" in the logo. --Soman (talk) 13:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Proper "style" for writing a greeting card?
Is there such a thing as proper formatting/style when it comes to writing a greeting card? Do you put a traditionally worded pair of salutation and complimentary close the same way you would when writing a letter? What if the card already has a pre-printed message? Are you supposed to make it read like it's part of your message to the recipient? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.9.176 (talk) 10:25, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a good question. There is no standard style, it very much depends on how well you know the person you are writing to.  I would go with "Dear first name" or just "first name", then write your message and sign off with just your name (you don't need "Yours").  If there's a pre-printed message I would tend to just ignore it, write the "Dear..." above it and write your own, different message underneath it. --Viennese Waltz 10:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * If you have a longer message, I've often seen where people will use the left hand side of the card (the blank inside cover). They'll start with "Dear name" or just "Name", write a number of sentences, and then sign off with whatever close seems appropriate given the occasion for the card and the nature of the relationship that they have with me.  They will then leave the right side, the side with the pre-printed message, otherwise blank.  Oh, and anyone who I happen to be sending a greeting card to probably won't care about me being "proper" as to the format.  They'll just appreciate the card and the sentiment.  Though, I've never had to send any out for any business related reasons...  Just to family and friends.  Dismas |(talk) 10:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Just start it "Dear Sir or Madam". That's always correct. Hans Adler 11:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You're joking, right? For a greetings card? --Viennese Waltz 11:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not joking. Just continue the card consistently in the same style:
 * "Dear Sir or Madam,
 * it is with the utmost pleasure and delight that I take the liberty of conveying to you the best applicable wishes consistent with the current season and occasion and your personal situation. May your tongue be always as firmly in your cheek as mine is in mine at the present moment.
 * Yours sincerely
 * On behalf of [put your name here, but don't sign]"
 * Everybody will want to get one of these, and you will never have to worry about the text of a greeting card again. Hans Adler 11:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And you will spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder for assassins from Hallmark. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.30 (talk) 14:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

difficult foreign language words
Can anyone here help me find out the arabic and phoenician equaivalents of cat and kitten? All I have so far is arabic cat=qitt, as given on the wiktionary page. the rest, nothing.

HS7 (talk) 11:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Arabic word for "kitten" seems to be hurayrah هريرة "little purrer". I'm not sure whether قط is actually the most common word for "cat" in modern Arabic, but its diminutive is qutaytah قطيطة .  Our knowledge of the Phoenician language is somewhat limited; the Hebrew word for "cat" is חתול, but this didn't necessarily originally refer to domesticated cats... AnonMoos (talk) 12:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Double period?
When ending a sentence with etc., should I use a double period; one for the abbreviated etc., and one to close the sentence? I am 64 and this thought has never occurred to me before. BTW I am a UK resident if that helps. Thanks. 62.30.176.76 (talk) 16:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No. A sentence ending with an abbreviation has just one period, which does double duty for both the abbreviation and the sentence. But I'm suspicious of your claim to be a UK resident since you called it a "period" rather than a "full stop"! ;-) Angr (talk) 16:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah Ah - well spotted. That's because I anticipated an American Q&A response. But thanks for your answer and understanding. 62.30.176.76 (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No reason to anticipate purely American answers here. Though I'm American myself, there are plenty of Brits and Australians who are Language refdesk regulars. Feel free to use the terminology you're most familiar with! Angr (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * and as a UK resident you might like to note that current UK practice is that abbreviations don't need full stops anyway! --rossb (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That is of course not correct. See Abbreviation.--Shantavira|feed me 18:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This was the convention when I was at primary school, 60 years ago; but see Abbreviation for a more up to date version. --rossb (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

A somewhat similar question which maybe doesn't have such a quick and conclusive answer is what to do if you're writing in a style that uses periods in abbreviations, and you include an abbreviation at the end of a parenthetical at the end of a sentence:
 * "I saw several of my old friends there (John, Mary, Susan, etc.)."

The ".)." looks a little ugly, but I'm not sure that there's any way around it... AnonMoos (talk) 14:14, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I, for one, have never seen it done any other way. Deor (talk) 22:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I assert the following: in confusing or variable conventions, do what you find consistent with your style and purpose until a higher power, editor, publisher, or finicky friend tells you otherwise. For my own part, as I find puntuation only a semantic and phonemic aid, applying the formal-logical rules trumps aesthetics (except in fiction or poetry). SamuelRiv (talk) 23:13, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The mathematical notation for "n factorial" is n!. What is 4!? It's 24! Does it surprise anyone that the punctuation is retained when you write "n!"? I love to write "n!"! You don't often see a number as big as 10!! You wouldn't want to confuse 10! with 10! That's a much smaller number.96.46.201.210 (talk) 00:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It sounds like we'd agree that indented equations in technical writing should not contain punctuation. However, in general my objection sacrificing semantics for visual aesthetics comes more from my fondness for multilayered sentence constructions (which have been known to upset visual purists - "I y'am what I y'am."). SamuelRiv (talk) 21:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

"Si" in Cebuano
What does "Si" mean in Cebuano? I've noticed the Cebuano Wikipedia seems to include it in front of every person's name. For example, ceb:Napoleon I says "Si Napoleon I" and ceb:Adolf Hitler says "Si Adolf Hitler". Is it an article or a honorific of some sort, or perhaps a marker to identify that this is a person's name? J I P &#124; Talk 23:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Singular personal name marker. See Cebuano language and si.--Itinerant1 (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm a native Cebuano speaker. In less technical terms, si is similar to the English definite article "the" except that it uniquely precedes persons only, specifically an individual. It can not be applied to any other noun (proper or not). It doesn't necessarily have to be a proper name, it could be a title, a nickname, or even the filler kuwan (equivalent to the filled pause "ummm..." in English). But it must refer to a specific individual. It answers the question kinsa? ("who?") and alerts the listener/reader that you are talking about someone.


 * It must precede all such cases. Although it does not have a direct equivalent in English, removing it would be similar to saying "Tree is tall." instead of "The tree is tall." --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   13:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In Greek, all proper nouns take the ordinary definite article ("the"). It does, however, decline for gender, number and grammatical case. Examples: Canada - ο Καναδάς, Greece - η Ελλάδα, London - το Λονδίνο, Barack Obama - ο Μπαράκ Ομπάμα, Gwyneth Paltrow - η Γκουίνεθ Πάλτροου. --Theurgist (talk) 19:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I find it a little charming that you always call it O Canada. --Trovatore (talk) 00:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "You"? I'm not Greek :) --Theurgist (talk) 15:18, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Mparak? lol 80.122.178.68 (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Our own words do not actually inflect for gender, with the exception of Spanish loanwords, e.g. Filipino, Filipina. Even all our pronouns are completely gender neutral (siya could mean "he" or "she"). And LOL yeah, why is it Mparak? Did they unintentionally "Swahilize" his first name? :P --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   21:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, "Mparak". And also "Ompama". That has nothing to do with the mtu-class in Swahili, but rather it's an issue with the somewhat limited applicability of the Modern Greek alphabet. The letter beta (actually "vita" in Modern Greek) writes the V-sound; and the -ΜΠ- cluster (mi + pi) is pronounced either [b] or [mb]. So -ΜΠ- is the only way Greeks can spell the B-sound in foreign names. Similarly, delta is pronounced like the "th" in "this", and the -ΝΤ- cluster (ni + taf) is either [d] or [nd] (Ντέιβιντ = David); and also gamma alone writes this sound (or this one, before /i/ or /e/), and -ΓΚ- (gamma + kappa) is either the G-sound in "garlic" or [ŋɡ] as in "finger" (see Gwyneth Paltrow, above), or respectively [ɟ] and [ɲɟ] before /i/ or /e/ . --Theurgist (talk) 22:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * One of my favorites is File:Doric Pride - IMO 9230751 - Callsign SXIE 06Aug05 NW stern leaving Port of Rotterdam, Holland 06-Aug-2005.jpg... AnonMoos (talk) 00:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Δώρικ Πραϊντ = Doric Pride. πράιντ could also do as a transcription for "pride". They could have gone even further by writing it as Ντόρικ Πραϊντ, which would have been a full and accurate transcription of the English, but they seem to have followed the original Greek orthography of δωρικός ("Doric") instead.
 * I'm introducing some minor revisions to my post of 22:32, 15 December 2011. Some more stuff and technical explanations can be found at: Modern Greek phonology and Greek orthography. --Theurgist (talk) 15:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answers. I wonder if this si kuwan ("person ummm..." in English?) was the inspiration for the character Si Kwan in Star Trek: New Frontier... J I P  &#124; Talk 20:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh, no. Si kuwan (usually spoken with a slight questioning lilt, also spelled si kwan/si kuan, Cebuano orthography is not standardized) when roughly translated would be more like colloquial "Whatshisname?" in English. If Si Cwan was an inside joke, his father "Tae Cwan" would be even more hilarious (tae means "shit").--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   21:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)