Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 February 23

= February 23 =

Seasonal colouration
What is the term for a seasonal colouration of an animal? The article snowshoe hare uses the terms "summer morph" and "winter morph", but the article Morph (zoology) discourages this use. If we have an article about seasonal colouration in general, I can't find it. 205.193.96.10 (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Polyphenism? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That doesn't look it. Neither do color phase or polymorphism.  The specific mechanism, in mammals, is moulting, or, more specially, shedding, but I haven't found a general article on seasonal animal color changes, either.  StuRat (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh my. WP:WHAAOE fails then? No such user (talk) 08:14, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The polyphenism article says "Birds and mammals, however, are capable of continued physiological changes in adulthood, and some display reversible seasonal polyphenisms, such as coat color in the Arctic fox." Adam Bishop (talk) 09:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Skočná and sousedská
How would you pronounce the dances skočná and sousedská? They are Slavic folk dances. I do not understand IPA so a simple English pronounciation would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! 27.32.104.185 (talk) 09:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Skočná: SCOTCH - nah.
 * Sousedská: SO - sed - skah.


 * The stress is on the first syllable, as indicated by the capital letters. The "so" is like the word "so". The "sed" is like the word "said". If you're interested in details, the "o" in "so" sounds more like most American English speakers' pronunciation of "so" (not as in Australian English, RP, nor as in Scottish English). That is, the first half of the "o" sound is more like the "o" in "dog" (as pronounced in Autralian or RP), and then comes the "w" part. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 11:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Just a little correction: according to the rules of Czech pronunciation, regressive assimilation of voice should occur in the cluster ‹dsk›, making the "d" sound like "t": SO-sett-skah. The accents above the á's indicate that those syllables are long rather than short, and have nothing to do with the stress, which in Czech always is carried by the first syllable of a word. Here is the IPA anyway, even though the OP didn't request it:,. --Theurgist (talk) 04:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated. 27.32.104.185 (talk) 06:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

[I am minorly revising my comment. --Theurgist (talk) 12:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)]

Desert's son in Arabic
Recently, I see Gaddafi being referenced (at least in the German speaking press) as "desert's son". Is that a common, or at least possible, way of referencing towards someone in Arab speaking countries? Is it offensive, like calling someone 'hillbilly'? I know that Arabs do not associate the desert necessarily as something good, but Gaddafi is Beduin, so, it may be different in this case. Quest09 (talk) 14:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I always thought that those expression like "sons of the desert" were a Western romantic view of Arabs, not meant to be offensive, but also not accurate. 212.169.188.102 (talk) 14:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Think it has as much to do with Rudolf Valentino era "sheikh" movies as anything; The Sons of the Desert is actually a Laurel-and-Hardy fan club... AnonMoos (talk) 14:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It's sort of a pejorative nickname for Bedouins, which Gaddafi is, as you mentioned. I'm not entirely certain, but apparently he also calls himself that? (Also, interestingly, if you search Google Images for the Arabic, "ابن الصحراء", you get lots of pictures of Zinedine Zidane!) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I have the impression that a Bedouin or desert origin is idealized, not derogated, in Arab society. In the Arab view, I think, the truest, purest Arabs are Bedouins, whose independence, code of honor, and freedom from cosmopolitan corruption are seen as ideals.  Marco polo (talk) 17:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * True, but I thought it also had a pejorative meaning now, in the sense of being backwards and uncultured...not quite the "hillbilly" stereotype that Quest mentioned, but maybe like a cowboy, kind of archaic. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It can be both simultaneously: On the one hand, as an abstract cultural symbol, Bedouins are the original source of Arabic culture, and supposedly speak the purest Arabic (or did so in the past). But on the other hand, in some areas of the middle east the bedouin are the traditional enemies of the settled agriculturalists, and when a modern educated Arab city-dweller encounters specific illiterate nomads in the concrete, he may be filled with feelings more of contempt than reverence... AnonMoos (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So it's sort of like white Americans' view of American Indians: on the one hand, peaceful noble savages in touch with nature; on the other hand, impoverished alcoholics. —Angr (talk) 09:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Punctuation after italics
I see the MOS says that punctuation should not be italicized unless it belongs exclusively to the section of italic text, rather than affecting the sentence as a whole. Outside of Wikipedia, though, how wrong is it to do it the other way? Italic text followed by a non-italic semicolon or question mark looks awful, since the last letter usually overlaps with the punctuation. 213.122.19.152 (talk) 17:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In my experience this is quite usual in style guides. Try it out with common typefaces like Arial or Times New Roman in your word processor - it should print okay even if it looks a bit strange on screen. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, it was the font's fault, you're quite right. Dammit Baskerville, I thought I could trust you. 213.122.19.152 (talk) 17:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Translation of Japanese term into English
Any Japanese speakers out there? At "commons:File:Tokugawa Yoshikatsu (1824–1883).jpg" I am trying to find out the appropriate English translation for "徳川林政史研究所藏", which is the source of the photograph. The closest I got with the help of Google Translate was "collection of the Tokugawa rin (?) History of Governance Institute". — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:57, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

"collection of the Tokugawa forest management and historical research institute"163.1.231.43 (talk) 21:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)vika
 * Brilliant. Thanks very much! — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I read it as a research institute for the history of forest management, not for forest management and history in parallel. I would suggest "From the collection of the Tokugawa Forest Management History Institute". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A little odd, perhaps, that a forest management history institute would have a photograph of Tokugawa Yoshikatsu in its archives? But who knows? — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 15:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it's part of their collection in relation to the history of the institute or its namesake and family of its founder, rather than part of their professional collection? ja:徳川林政史研究所 and their official site (http://www.tokugawa.or.jp/institute/) shed some light on the institute's history and evolution. It seems that it was founded for research about forest management but because of its connection with the Owari Tokugawa family (it was founded by the 19th head, Tokugawa Yoshichika), came to hold a substantial volume of historical material relating to the Owari clan. That's my understanding anyway, perhaps one of the native Japanese speakers here will come along and shed more light. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:02, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * One of the holdings of the "The Tokugawa Institute for the History of Forestry" is "A catalog of historical materials concerning the Owari Tokugawa family". Yoshikatsu appears to have been something of a historian with a special interests in photographs, judging from this, the bottom half of which is conveniently in English. -_jpgordon:==( o ) 18:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, good job with the research! — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)