Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 16

= January 16 =

Biased question?
Hello everyone. I'm a high school student here in the US. A bit of background on me: I was born in China and moved to the US when I was 7, but picked up English easily and kept up my Chinese through frequent trips to China and lessons along with other native speakers (not to mention it's the language I speak at home); I speak both about the same. I registered for a preparation class covering the Chinese AP and SAT. While practicing on some retired SAT problems, I came across a question that gave a short paragraph about 端午节, a Chinese holiday. It talked about the origin and traditions (in Chinese), and a question followed (in English) "According to the paragraph, what food is eaten on this holiday?" The choices were (1) dumplings, (2) rice balls, (3) rice tamales, (4) moon cake. Now from my background knowledge and the passage I knew the answer (in Chinese) was 粽子, but none of these answers fit; I didn't get this one right. While going over the answers I learned it was (3), but I had never heard of a 'tamale' before in my life. I did some research and discovered that the word tamale is Spanish(!), but I have no familiarity with hispanic cuisine. Was this question biased? What should I do about this, or if I encounter a similar question on the real SAT/AP? Thanks 24.92.70.160 (talk) 04:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it biased? Hard to say. Tamale is a reasonably well-known word. Others might have trouble with "moon cake". As for how you should deal with it, the advice is the same for any question of which you are unsure: first eliminate obvious wrong answers, then guess. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 粽子 says "In the Western world, they are also known as rice dumplings or Chinese tamales." So the inclusion of the "dumplings" choice alongside "tamales" seems the worst crime. 81.131.22.13 (talk) 06:12, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose tamale is regarded as widely known in the US, but it is virtually unheard of in Asia. The question-setter probably took dumplings to mean shrimp or pork dumplings, that is, small bits of meat and/or vegetables wrapped in a skin and boiled or steamed (a bit like Italian ravioli), but as the article referred to by 81.131.22.13 points out, zhongzi are frequently called "rice dumplings" in English in Asia. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 06:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It is worth noting that the question included "According to the paragraph". That is the key here. You're not supposed to say what is actually eaten on this holiday, based on what you know about the real world. You are supposed to interpret what the paragraph says. So 粽子 is an incorrect answer, even if it is what people actually eat for 端午节. If the paragraph said: "Christmas is a holiday on which most Americans eat cod" then the answer to the question: "According to the paragraph, what is commonly eaten on Christmas? A) Turkey B) Pork C) Fish D) Beef", the answer is C), no matter how wrong you know it actually is./Coffeeshivers (talk) 09:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * But the paragraph did say (in Chinese) that 粽子 are eaten. It's how they translated 粽子 that threw me off. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 17:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Coffeeshivers. It sounds like you are not supposed to stray outside of the alternate reality constructed by the paragraph in question. I've never heard of "Tamale" before but it could well be that this word is more commonly known in some parts of the US than Australia or the UK. I would not translate zongzi this way, and I'm sure many other people who are not so well versed with Mexican cuisine would not translate it this way either. However, we all know that school text books and exam questions often do not reflect reality, and the best strategy with reading comprehension questions is probably to stay within its reality, rather than real reality. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * For those unfamiliar with the term (which is will-known in America), see the Tamale article. There was a joke going around when I was a kid: What's a Mexican weather forecast? "Chili today, hot tamale!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Coffeeshivers and PalaceGuard have not read the question properly. The paragraph was in Chinese. This does seem a bit unreasonable to me, but then "tamales" is almost unknown in my (UK) English, so I don't know how reasonable it was to expect a student in the US to recognise it as a translation of 粽子. --ColinFine (talk) 20:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * My apologies - I didn't read the question carefully enough. I saw "SAT" and assumed it was English reading comprehension. In that case, if it had been in Australia or the UK, or indeed in China, I would have found the translation bizarre, but given that this is the US I withdraw what I said above and defer to the American editors. I wonder if there is any regional variation on the use of this word tamales to translate zongzi? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, it offends my sense of English fairness to ask a question testing Chinese to English translation that depends on a knowledge of Spanish for the answer. I can only assume that the question setter was assuming that all Americans know what a "tamale" is.  I suppose that "rice ball" implies "round" which zongzi aren't, and "dumplings" implies "suet" in British English (not the case in American), but these are poor reasons to reject these answers.    D b f i r s   21:20, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "Tamale" is not considered to be a foreign word. However, I concur that it was a poorly worded test question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Questions depending on assumptions of cultural knowledge is a common criticism leveled at standardized tests. The SAT has a subsection about cultural bias in the tests. Traditionally these have centered on WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) biases (e.g. expecting test-takers to know what an oarsman or a regatta was), so the fact that they're including Latino cultural biases now might be considered a step up by some. -- 174.21.229.4 (talk) 00:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * ... or a step down? Is it not preferable to remove cultural biases, rather than add new ones?  ( ... though I agree that my ideal might prove difficult.)  My real objection is that the "correct" answer misuses the word "tamal" as defined in the OED.  I've never seen one, or even heard of one before, so I've no idea what the word means in the USA.    D b f i r s   11:13, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * How does the OED define tamal? In American English, at least as spoken in the part of the US where Mexican food plays an important cultural role, the word is almost always tamale (with the final -e being added by back-formation from the plural tamales) and refers to a food of cornmeal or masa harina combined with other ingredients (shredded pork, black beans, spices, etc.), wrapped up in corn (i.e. maize) husks, and steamed. Highly yummy all year round, but especially traditional in Mexican-American families for Christmas. Pais (talk) 11:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * They were well-known in the American midwest, at least 50 years ago, long before Taco Bell came along. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Does Taco Bell even serve tamales? They're not listed at . Pais (talk) 11:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. My point is that they were well-known in the midwest, not just in the states bordering Mexico. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC/2) Would they be well known in the less Mexican-influenced parts of the US?
 * Tamal is defined in the OED as: n. Mexican delicacy, made of crushed Indian corn, flavoured with pieces of meat or chicken, red pepper, etc., wrapped in corn-husks and baked.
 * I think Dbfirs refers to the error as pointed out by the OED that the singular is tamal or tamaul, and the plural is tamales; "tamale" is labelled as "erroneous" by the OED, which makes sense given what has been said above about it being a back-formation from the plural tamales.
 * Curiously, the OED cites four sources, the earliest being 1856, the titles of which refer to Texas, Boston and Southern California. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I did say "at least as spoken in the part of the US where Mexican food plays an important cultural role", not exclusively in such areas. Since I grew up in Texas and my parents grew up in Southern California, I can only speak for the parts of the U.S. within about 400 miles of the Mexican border. Until Bugs said so, I had no idea whether or not tamales were well known further north. Pais (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure of official definitions, but for practical purposes (speaking as a American or European descent) the distinguishing characteristic of tamales is the fact that they're wrapped in corn husks. The fact that Zongzi are a filling covered in a starch wrapped in leaves makes them very similar to tamales, which are a filling covered in a starch (corn vs. rice) wrapped in corn husks. If you are familiar with tamales, calling zongzi "Chinese tamales" is as good a two-word description as you'll find. - BTW, I agree with you that ideally SAT-type tests should be culturally neutral, however, it is rather hard to define what's common knowledge, and what's culturally specific. You can't assume people are familiar with tamales? Then how about tacos? Spaghetti? Pizza? Pot roast? What *can* you assume they be familiar with? I said that some might consider that inclusion of tamales is a "step up", because at least it indicates the question writers are thinking about non-WASPs. - Finally, whether or not "tamale" is correct (in American English usage, I've always seen the singular as "tamale", whether or not that's correct in Spanish or in British English), it isn't fair to blame the SAT for that, as the OP lists the answer they gave in the plural, and only mentions the singular in connection to their own research. -- 174.21.229.4 (talk) 17:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I just realized that we may not have adequately answered your question ("What should I do ... if I encounter a similar question on the real SAT/AP?"). First off, Coffeeshivers's advice holds. The correct answer is determined in the context of the test, regardless of what the answer would actually be in the real world. In this case, you might not have been able to determine the meaning of the word from the paragraph, but there might have been a definition given elsewhere in the test, or perhaps in the test-prep material or curriculum guide for the test. Assuming you still don't know what the answer means, standard test-taking rules apply: Answer the question to the best of your ability. For tests which penalize guessing by deducting points for wrong answers (like the SAT), if you can eliminate two or more answers, you're still better off guessing. For example, while you might not know what the word "tamales" means, you might be able to determine that the answer is definitely not "moon cake", and between the options of "dumpling" and "rice ball", "dumpling" is definitely the better answer. You've now narrowed it down to two answers, and can just make your best guess (e.g. "dumpling", because you actually know what it is; or "rice tamale", because "dumpling" isn't a very good answer; or (3) because you like the number three; or whatever whim strikes you at the time). You have a 50% chance of gaining a full point, and a 50% chance of losing a quarter point, which means, on average, you're still better off putting something down than leaving the question blank. - You're probably wondering if there is anything else you should do. If you feel strongly that the question was unfairly biased, you might consider writing to the people who make the test (the College Board for the SAT) and informing them of the question that you think is unfair and why. I can almost guarantee you that it won't do anything to your score, but they might remove or reword that or similar questions on future tests. -- 174.21.229.4 (talk) 18:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As I was pointing out earlier tamal and tamales are Spanish words, but "tamale" is an English word. I still think the question was poorly-worded, though. In fact, I haven't a clue what a "moon cake" is. "Moon pie" I've heard of, but not "moon cake". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You could try moon cake!! Caesar&#39;s Daddy (talk) 08:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. I had just never heard of it before. It occurs to me that the probability of the average citizen being familiar with both tamales and moon cakes might be slim, hence it's a poorly-written question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Bugs is probably right. And if we assume that most people know of either moon cake or tamales but not both, then it seems to me that someone taking a Chinese exam is more likely to know of the moon cake than the tamale. In any case, I think there would be value in someone (OP?) making a suggestion to the powers that be that they should avoid ambiguous, non-trivial translations like zongzi to "rice tamale" in future. I'm not sure whether the SAT Chinese test is a test of Chinese aptitude conducted in English, or a test of Chinese-to-English translation aptitude. If the latter, a question like this would be entirely justified, but if the former, then the question-setters should really be careful that they are not testing the latter. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

sex ed test question
i have a homework assingment its an open book test really and one of the questions is about whether it is low risk to get hiv from unprotected sex with an hiv+ partner if the viral load is undetectable, is it low risk? i think it is because they are on treatment, the scenario is an hiv+ active male partner with and hiv- passive partner for anal sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.60.6.109 (talk) 11:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That is a question for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science -- Irene1949 (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * They won't do your homework for you, but they might well point you at the table at HIV, which gives comparative estimated infection rates for a variety of sexual behaviours, including the one you're asking about.  Ka renjc 13:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And this study] may be something to discuss in your assignment. Ka renjc 13:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Qu'ran
I must admit ignorance from the beginning. All I need to know is which one I should get to have as a reference. It should be portable, relatively inexpensive, and purchasable from a large online dealer (like Amazon or Barnes & Noble). The only reason I'm asking here is because I don't want to offend a Muslim by carrying an inferior edition. Thanks Wikipedians! schyler (talk) 15:11, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Technically they are all "inferior" if there is any sort of translation. Personally, I use Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation, which has the English alongside the Arabic. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * By the way, you are very unlikely to meet anyone who would be offended by this. The first Qur'an I ever had was just an English translation, no Arabic (I think it was actually Yusuf Ali's translation, without the Arabic text), and I got it from a Muslim bookseller at a book fair. He was surprised when I wondered if he had any Arabic ones! Of course, there are good and bad translations, and translations used to prove some political or theological point, just as there are for the Bible. English translations of the Qur'an has a nice list. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, you might find these articles to be interesting.
 * Biblical narratives and the Qur'an
 * List of persons in both the Bible and the Qur'an
 * Etiquette in the Middle East
 * Islam and blasphemy
 * —Wavelength (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Remember, there are 1-billionish Muslims in the world, and they are as varied as Christians are. Just as there are some Christians who have very strong stances about Bible translations (some believe, for example, that the only valid English-language Bible is the King James Version, and all others shouldn't be read), you will also find Muslims who have the same attitude towards Quranic translations.  I believe that the goal of Muslims is to read the Quran in the original arabic because that is the language that the Prophet used.  However, insofar as a translated Quran may help make a convert of someone who does not speak or read Arabic, such translations are not forbidden per se, at least by many Muslim sects.  -- Jayron  32  20:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, for people that believe the Qur'an was a divine revelation, it's not so much that Arabic was the language that the Prophet used, but that it's the language that God used when dictating the Qur'an to the Prophet. I think the common philosophy is that it's only officially The Qur'an if it's in the original Arabic. While translations are permitted, a translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an, it's a commentary or interpretation of the Qur'an. Sort of in the philosophy of traduttore, traditore, and recognition that even the best translator will inevitably apply their own biases to the translation. That said, as you indicate, there are a large number of Muslims in the world, not all of which have the same beliefs with respect to the Quran and translations. (By the way, we have a Qur'an translations article that discusses these issues.) -- 174.21.229.4 (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And remember also that out of those 1 billion, statistically very few are Arabs or speak Arabic natively (and none of them speak classical Arabic, the language of the Qur'an). When I lived in residence in university, there were 9 people on my floor, and five of them were Muslim, but only one was Arab. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The Arabic language is very different from English, and the cultural background of the Quran is very different from today's Western world. In such situations different translations can make a dramatical difference. You can compare numerous versions at http://al-quran.info/ (click on "Select translation(s)" in the left sidebar to choose among the numerous English translations available). Hans Adler 12:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)