Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 2

= January 2 =

Por/Para vs. Pour/Par
How does the distinction between por and para (from Spanish) compare to the distinction between pour and par (from French)? — Trevor K. — 05:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakeyglee (talk • contribs)
 * Spanish por is like French par, Spanish para is like French pour, gets me every time. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 06:05, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Here are some examples comparing usage of por/par and para/pour, including some examples where you can't just replace one with the other when translating. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As noted here, the Spanish por is connected with the Latin pro and per, whereas para is connected with pora. That etymology perhaps also explains the French par and pour respectively. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Swedish surnames ending in -ius
Maybe my perception is selective here, but I've noticed that a number of famous academic Swedish people of the past had surnames ending in -ius: Arrhenius, Celsius, Chydenius, Retzius, Unonius. There is one German scientist: Clausius, but few other non-Swedish examples come to my mind. Was this form of latinized surname particular to Swedish academics? What's the story here? Do these names still exist in modern-day Sweden? (Retzius and Celsius, in particular, seem to have been names passed on for several generations). I found nothing under Scandinavian family name etymology. ---Sluzzelin talk  12:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * '...ius' sounds a bit fancy in Swedish, as opposed to more mundane names like Svensson and Karlsson. It is well possible that it was in fashion amongst certain sections of elites at some point. '...ius' is not Swedish language, but Latinized. --Soman (talk) 13:38, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There is also the NHL player Kristian Huselius. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The latinised surname was not particular to Swedish academics, they can be found in all forms with academics in Europe throughout the 1500s, 1600s and 1700s (in Denmark for example we have the Pontoppidans, which came from Broby, literally Bridgetown). However it does seem particular that the names later stuck in Sweden as compared to most other European countries, and that it is especially the -ius names that did so. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Jean Sibelius was Finnish, but Swedish-speaking. —Angr (talk) 16:07, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a list of some more academics with names ending in -ius. Most are German; the next most common nationality seems to be Dutch.


 * Erik Acharius, Swedish
 * Adam Afzelius, Swedish
 * Jacobus Arminius, Dutch
 * Per Olof Christopher Aurivillius, Swedish
 * Caesar Baronius, Italian
 * Friedrich Bergius, German
 * Jöns Jacob Berzelius, Swedish
 * August Wilhelm Heinrich Blasius, German
 * Johann Heinrich Blasius, German
 * Rudolf Jakob Camerarius, German
 * Georg Ludwig Carius, German
 * Andreas Cellarius, Dutch–German
 * Rudolf Clausius, German
 * Christopher Clavius, German
 * John Amos Comenius, Czech
 * Ernst Curtius, German
 * Ernst Robert Curtius, German
 * Georg Curtius, German
 * Theodor Curtius, German
 * Conrad Dasypodius, Swiss
 * Lloyd Demetrius, Jamaican-born, U.S.–German
 * Johann Jacob Dillenius, German
 * David Fabricius, German
 * Georg Fabricius, German
 * Johan Christian Fabricius, German
 * Johann Albert Fabricius, German
 * Johannes Fabricius, German
 * Otto Fabricius, Danish
 * Carl Remigius Fresenius, German
 * Gemma Frisius, Dutch
 * Johannes Acronius Frisius, Dutch
 * Ferdinand Georg Frobenius, German
 * Jacobus Golius, Dutch
 * Jan Frederik Gronovius, Dutch
 * Walter Gropius, German
 * Hugo Grotius, Dutch
 * Wilhelm Gueinzius, German
 * Claude Adrien Helvétius, French
 * Max Henius, Danish–American
 * Johannes Hevelius, Polish
 * Hendrik Hondius I, Dutch
 * Henricus Hondius II, Dutch
 * Jodocus Hondius, Flemish
 * Willem Hondius, Dutch
 * Jan Janssonius, Dutch
 * Kazimieras Jaunius, Lithuanian
 * Joachim Jungius, German
 * Jonas Kubilius, Lithuanian
 * Lars Levi Læstadius, Swedish
 * Karl Richard Lepsius, Prussian
 * Andreas Libavius, German
 * Aldus Manutius, Italian
 * Simon Marius, German
 * Carl Friedrich Philipp von Martius, German
 * Vilém Mathesius, Czech
 * August Ferdinand Möbius, German
 * Karl Möbius, German
 * Paul Julius Möbius, German
 * Oscar Montelius, Swedish
 * Adam Olearius, German
 * Abraham Ortelius, Flemish
 * Franciscus Patricius, Venetian
 * Albert Pighius, Dutch
 * Petrus Plancius, Dutch
 * Anton Praetorius, German
 * Johannes Praetorius, Bohemian German
 * Georg Eberhard Rumphius, German-born
 * Rudolph Snellius, Dutch
 * Willebrord Snellius, Dutch
 * Hermann Friedrich Stannius, German
 * Lars Svenonius, Swedish
 * Simon Syrenius, Polish
 * Arne Tiselius, Swedish
 * Johann Daniel Titius, German
 * Zachris Topelius, Finnish, spoke Swedish
 * Johannes Trithemius, German
 * Justus Velsius, Dutch
 * Hermann Witsius, Dutch


 * —Bkell (talk) 18:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, that clinches my selective perception. The German examples are more than quadruple the number of Swedish ones on that list. Thanks, Bkell! And thank you, all, for your replies! ---Sluzzelin talk  22:05, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Swedish book title
What does "Chefer från helvetet" (book title by Anna Troberg) mean in English? Thanks. 67.122.209.190 (talk) 20:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It literally means "Bosses from Hell", apparently. Rimush (talk) 20:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed it does. DuncanHill (talk) 20:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming, since I don't speak Swedish I had to use some Google-skills to find out :P Rimush (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I thought it might have been something like "Cooks from Switzerland" ;-). I added a gloss to the author's biography.  67.122.209.190 (talk) 00:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * That's what it means in Swedish, but the OP asked what it means in English. —Tamfang (talk) 02:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Word for the pre-sunrise counterpart of afterglow
Is there a word in English for the pre-sunrise sky, which looks similar to the post-sunset afterglow? --108.16.33.185 (talk) 20:15, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Twilight is the time between dawn and sunrise, and between sunset and dusk. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 20:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Twilight, gloaming and dusk all refer to the midway period between night and day, however all three of them refer especially to the one in the evening near sunset. I don't know of a word that explicitly refers to the one in the morning. Lexicografía (talk) 20:40, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a Wiktionary entry dawnlight.  The online OED doesn't list it as a separate word, but has a citation under dawn saying "1850    E. B. Browning Poems II. 326,   I oft had seen the *dawnlight run As red wine, through the hills."  The OED also has a citations for "dawn-lit", "dawn-illumined", "dawn-streaks", and "dawn-flush" (1906    Daily Chron. 30 June 4/6   A painter‥saw a sunrise and put the *dawn-flush into a picture.).  The French word fr:Crépuscule might be close to what you want; the English cognate crepuscular rays can occur at any time of day.  Twilight refers to the blue hour, which designates the time of day rather than the sky itself, so I don't know if that helps.  67.122.209.190 (talk) 20:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * My first instinct is to call it first light, but Wiktionary defines that as "Dawn; sunrise; the moment at which the sun can first be seen on the horizon". It seems that there is such a word as foreglow, often in the phrase foreglow of dawn, which has no entry in Wiktionary or in the OED.  Google Books shows it to have kept up a tenuous existence since the 19th century. --Antiquary (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Lexicografía, I may be misreading what you are saying but twilight refers to both morning and evening. Of course right now all we have is twilight and night, with nothing else. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 14:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/astronomical-information-center/rise-set-twi-defs says that twilight also occurs in the early morning. In naval warfare in pre-radar times, twilight must have been a vital period as you would see for the first time if any enemy ships were near you. 92.28.242.164 (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes and you needed to avoid being caught in silhouette on the eastern horizon. Bad mistake. Alansplodge (talk) 19:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)