Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 July 11

= July 11 =

Milkmaid figure
I suppose that's a rather round figure, isn't it? Would anyone understand it as such? (is that a fixed expression?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiweek (talk • contribs) 00:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * can you clarify this? It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 01:13, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I know of a similar usage in German: :"Milchmädchenrechnung" ("milkmaid calculation", meaning a naive (often mis)calculation) (see wiktionary link). See also "The milkmaid and her pail", where it is phrased "milkmaid's reckoning". I can't speak for native English speakers, but I don't think I've encountered this usage in English. ---Sluzzelin talk  01:26, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Please supply some context, otherwise I would assume it simply means a figure (which has several meanings) of a milkmaid. Why would you think it's round?--Shantavira|feed me 07:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Milkmaids and similar people are/were popular subjects of porcelain figurines. Searching for "miklmaid" and "figurine" on Google gets thousands of hits for these little statues. Roger (talk) 09:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Judging from the original question and Sluzzelin's reply, I think the intended meaning is "figure" meaning "calculation". No, Wikiweek, that expression is so unfamiliar in English that most of the people who have replied to your question did not understand it. --ColinFine (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Could be way off the mark here but my instant assumption on reading this was that they meant a milkmaid figure as in someone's body-shape like someone being Pear shaped or Hourglass shaped etc. (Female body shape). I would assume it would therefore mean being 'buxom'? ny156uk (talk) 21:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * If you look up "milkmaid figure" on Google Books the words either refer to a figurine in the form of a milkmaid or to the physique of a person. I think "robust" would be a better description than "buxom". A girl that can handle milk churns and is used to manual labor. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 13:07, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

naming custom of Salva Kiir Mayardit?
Can anyone explain the naming custom in use for this person? He appears to be consistently formally referred to as "Kiir", and not "Mayardit". --Cyber cobra (talk) 00:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't appear to be unique to him. A previous leader of South Sudan was John Garang whose full name was John Garang de Mabior.  Both men were Dinka people, and checking other Dinka people at random, including Riek Machar (full name Riek Machar Teny), Valentino Achak (full name Valentino Achak Deng) and Manute Bol (full name not known, perhaps that was it), shows that such practice does happen among some other Dinka, though I can't find anything on the "system", per se.  -- Jayron  32  04:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It may be merely a matter of personal preference. It's not at all uncommon in the UK for people to use a second (or other) forename rather than their first in some or all everyday situations: see, for example James Gordon Brown. I myself use my first forename amongst family and at work, but my second amongst my own circle of friends . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.165 (talk) 07:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The "unused" last part of the name could be a clan name, patronymic or similar. Such naming systems are common in Africa though I don't have any specific knowlege of Dinka naming systems. Note to the previous poster: The usage is too common and consistent among South Sudanese (all Dinka?) for it to be merely personal preference - I believe it is clearly systematic. Roger (talk) 08:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected and withdraw my, in retrospect, clueless speculation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.165 (talk) 10:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Sum = "An arithmetical problem to be solved", not just adding up
I teach Mathematics in Australia. To me, a sum is an addition. Sum is a disambiguation page which, among other things, redirects to Summation, which is fine. But there's a usage of sum, at least in this country, which is reflected in that definition above, which comes from the Macquarie Dictionary. (Australia's own, for those unfamiliar.)

This means that any arithmetic problem, be it summation, subtraction, mulitplication, division, etc, can be described as a sum. It bothers me. Wikipedia doesn't cover this usage. So, does this usage occur elsewhere? Should we try to cover it in Wikipedia? HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * See WP:DABNOT. Sum (disambiguation) has a box with a link to the Wiktionary article wiktionary:sum which includes: "(UK) An arithmetic computation, especially one posed to a student as an exercise (not necessarily limited to addition.)" PrimeHunter (talk) 03:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's an informal usage common in Primary schools, but discouraged in Secondary schools in the UK. It is correctly recorded in Wiktionary, but hardly deserves a Wikipedia article.    D b f i r s   06:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I would say put a hatnote or dab entry to math problem, but apparent there's no such article! --Cyber cobra (talk) 07:21, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Nor should there be, imo. We have Mathematics and problem, which suffice.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  08:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed. A dictionary tries to cover every nuance of meaning for a word, and Wiktionary does this.  An encyclopaedia sets out information on a topic, and Wikipedia does this for summation.  We shouldn't try to make either into the other.    D b f i r s   11:35, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I for one have never encountered use of "sum" to mean any arithmetical problem, and I certainly hope I never will. It is a horrible abuse of mathematical terminology, only perhaps allowed for elementary mathematical tuition for pre-teenage children. I have not encountered this use of the term in my native Finnish, or in Swedish or German, either. J I P  &#124; Talk 18:55, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I suspect that this usage is related to the general "summation" definition: "What's your summation of this problem ?" StuRat (talk) 05:03, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never heard "summation" used quite like that. Outside of technical mathematical usage, I've only encountered it as the cliché and slightly thesaurusy-sounding "In summation, ..." --Cyber cobra (talk) 05:47, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The mis-use is not from "summation". The first arithmetic that young children learn is traditionally called "sums" because that is the calculation they are initially taught.  When children go on to learn the other rules of arithmetic, they are not taught to call them "differences", products" and "quotients", so they (and sometimes, regrettably, their teachers) continue to refer to "sums" when they mean "arithmetic".    D b f i r s   06:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that fits the usage I see. One of the sad things about teaching that I've observed is that the best maths students who become teachers naturally become high school maths teachers, leaving those who become primary teachers to be drawn from a pool of people not so good at maths. (But no doubt incredibly caring and brilliant at the other aspects of teaching, he says quickly, hoping to avoid being shot down in flames by sensitive primary teachers.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:26, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It was standard everyday English usage, sorry JIP. My primary school days were filled with addition sums, subtraction sums, multiplication sums and division sums. Sum=arithmetical calculation, usually one given in the abstract, without context. Teacher: I've put sums on the board, be quiet and get on with them. At secondary school we went on to maths, so sums became redundant. I expect primary school teachers avoid the usage now, except in conversation with parents. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed - I did "sums" too (in the 1960s). Whether they still do, I have no idea. I'll ask a teacher. Alansplodge (talk) 13:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)


 * In a former life I worked at the Australian Bureau of Statistics. People who applied for jobs there, even internal applicants, would sometimes claim in their applications to be "good with numbers". --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The latest word from English primary schools (the Scots and Welsh do their own thing) is that "sums" are now called "number sentences". My thanks to Charlotte, who is a Teaching Assistant and knows these things. However, some publishers are behind the times! Alansplodge (talk) 22:09, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, horrible! I've seen that disease in Victoria, Australia too. Given that the kids struggling with maths often struggle with literacy too, I can't see how it can help. HiLo48 (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

English to Korean sentence translation requests
주세진 died in San Antonio, Texas on October 10, 1997. Since he died more than 30 days from the crash, the 미국연방교통안전위원회 counts him as a survivor
 * Hi! I have some requests for translation from English to Korean:
 * Died within 30 days in San Antonio, TX
 * The National Transportation Safety Board held a public hearing on the accident in the 하와이 컨벤션 센터 in Honolulu, Hawaii on March 24, 25, and 26 in 1998

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 06:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

( CHN ) meaning of Hanzi on this farmhouse beam?
image here This is a beam in the roof of an old farmhouse in rural NE China. Sadly, I did not think to ask the owners the significance of the 4 characters while I was there, and I'm hoping someone here can sort it out? Thank you. The Masked Booby (talk) 14:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't make out the third character, but the rest are (right to left) 请神——位 - it's a request to the spirits to do something. As I say, the third character is hard to see. The final one means 'status'. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  17:22, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I read it as 諸神退位 "all gods step back from their thrones" (compare these dictionary entries). —Kusma (t·c) 18:45, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * My Chinese reading skills have mostly evaporated, but apparently it is a chengyu, compare this. —Kusma (t·c) 20:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a common Chinese folklore in some region, the complete sentence is "姜太公在此，诸神退位", or "Lord Jiang is here, all gods step back." This sentence is put in the main beam of house, it is hoped that Jiang will protect the house.--刻意(Kèyì) 21:38, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In England, it's common to see a sign saying "Duck or Grouse" on low beams. Alansplodge (talk) 13:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC)