Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 July 22

= July 22 =

Killers - Spree vs. Mass
Your Deaths page lists Mark Stroman as a serial killer. Should he not more correctly be listed as a mass killer, or perhaps a spree killer? http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/streiber/273/inf_servsmas.htm Serial Killers VS Mass Killers VS Spree Killers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gemini.images (talk • contribs) 00:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking out for the accuracy of Wikipedia articles. Unfortunately, the website you have linked to is not a reliable source.  It is basically just some webpage that some guy posted on a free webhosting service, and therefore isn't appropriate to use as a source to change a Wikipedia article.  Also, in order to change the details of an article, you'd need to have direct material that didn't require any original construction to put together; that is you would need to find reliable sources that directly call Mark Stroman a "spree killer" or a "mass killer"; you can't just use your own interpretation to decide that he is.  -- Jayron  32  00:47, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * After some searching I guess you refer to a former version of Deaths in 2011. The entry was removed in  for other reasons. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Help me find the phrase
There's a concept, a two word phrase, that's on the tip of my tongue, but it's just not coming. It's used essentially to describe something that's more than the sum of its parts, like consciousness emerging from the activity of trillions of neurons. It's something like "emergent condition" (but that's not it). If I wait long enough it'll pop into my head while I'm thinking about something else but I decided not to wait.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Emergent behaviour? --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:36, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is Emergence (condition, behavior, whatever). I think your original instinct was actually correct.  -- Jayron  32  01:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Aha! with that, and a little searching it's "emergent property". Funny that without the "P" sound in proximity I wasn't sure it was even "emergent" but once I saw the phrase it clicked in.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:48, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Origin of Kelsey's nuts
My father who was a New Yorker used a phrase "dead as Kelsey's nuts" to describe a variety of situations such as business deals gone south, a failing enterprise, the chances of a baseball team. I never asked him who Kelsey was and we did not discuss people's nuts. I had forgotten about the phrase until I recently came across it in a Lawrence Block book about the recovering alky, Matthew Scudder. I could write him, but I thought I would get a bigger response using this forum. EGraciesB 7/21/11EGracieB (talk) 03:08, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Check out this World Wide Words column.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:22, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I've actually worked at Kelsey-Hayes in Romulus, Michigan. StuRat (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

JA (Location of headquarters)
Hi! The headquarters of Peach Aviation is at: That's Osaka airport, in Tajiri, Osaka But what part of the airport is it located at? I tried dictionary searches of: I can't tell what this is supposed to refer to? Is there a middle area of the airport terminal (the airport has one passenger terminal)? WhisperToMe (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "大阪府泉南郡田尻町泉州空港中１番地（関西空港内)"
 * "中１番地"
 * It is incorrectly parsed. It is not "Naka 1 Banchi". It is "Senshū Kūkō Naka" in the town Tajiri. Kansai Airport Island belongs to three municipalities, from north to south, Izumisano, Osaka, Tajiri, Osaka, and Sennan, Osaka and therefore have separate adresses: Senshū Kūkō Kita, Izumisano (泉佐野市泉州空港北), Senshū Kūkō Naka, Tajiri (田尻町泉州空港中), Senshū Kūkō Minami, Sennnan (泉南市泉州空港南). I can't help where 泉州空港中１番地 exactly is. --Kusunose 06:17, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * According to this page, the full address is 〒549-8585 大阪府泉南郡田尻町泉州空港中1 番地エアロプラザ3F Peach Aviation株式会社. Here is the map. Oda Mari (talk) 10:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is the en page. Oda Mari (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for finding it! WhisperToMe (talk) 03:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

"Circle jerk" synonym
I'm looking for a polite (or at least not vulgar) synonym for the term "circle jerk" in its slang sense of "a group dedicated to the artificial inflation of the egos of its members via meaningless mutual praise". The closest thing I can think of is "preaching to the choir", which is not very close at all. Are there any suggestions? Thanks. -- ✶♏✶ 04:19, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * But that's not what it means. It means a group who are only interesting in talking about a specific thing which they think is important (and those outside the group doesn't really care - like say Android "fragmentation" which only interests a little nerd minority) --IceHunter (talk) 20:34, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, you might be interested that we don't use the phrase "preaching to the choir" in the UK. We say "preaching to the converted".  I found the US phrase interesting when I first heard it. --Phil Holmes (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * mutual admiration society. --Trovatore (talk) 04:30, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * exactly. μηδείς (talk) 16:48, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The Academy Awards? Googlemeister (talk) 18:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm actually looking for a particular synonym that I read somewhere, that was more succinct and witty. Any thoughts? -- ✶♏✶ 00:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

“Mutual admiration society” was Henry David Thoreau term, in 1851. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking for a word for a finger punch
While Wikipedia Has An Article on Everything™, I can't find an English term for (one or both of) the following types of finger punch. Both involve using your middle finger as a spring, and releasing it on a victim's head: The punch is mildly painful (more so using technique 1). It is common among school kids, or for mild punishment of kids by the elders. It is called čvrga in Serbo-Croatian. Is there an English term? Or is that a cultural difference? I perused Category:Gestures to no avail. No such user (talk) 11:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) pull the middle finger of one hand as far back as possible with the other hand, and release it; or
 * 2) tighten the index or middle finger, using the thumb of the same head, similarly as in the image on the right (but more strongly, as when throwing a cigarette butt away), and release it.


 * A finger flick or a fillip? I wouldn't necessarily categorize it as a gesture, but it's not listed under Category:Pain infliction methods or Category:Strikes (martial arts) either. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * We called it an ear flick at school. It's not listed at list of school pranks, neither is the helicopter. Remember the helicopter? Now that takes me back!--Shantavira|feed me 12:05, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree on "flick" for London (NE) in the 1960s and 70s but you'll have to expand on "the helicopter" please, as terminology varies by region. Alansplodge (talk) 17:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It's called "flicking" in the Midwest US. Can't speak for other parts of the world. Lexicografía (talk) 18:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree, that it's "flicking" in the Midwest US, or at least here in Detroit. StuRat (talk) 16:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It was "flick" here in southern Ontario (Canada) when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. Bielle (talk) 00:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

To flick implies flicking something off a surface, like, "I flicked a fly off his dead body." If the focus is on the impact to the head, and not the finger, you would be thwacking him with your fingernail. Of course there was no word for this where I grew up, where we simply punched people. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "Thwacking" would posit more force than a fingernail could generate, and would have been done with the back of the hand, similar to "whacking" but with more pizzazz. Ears were the usual target for "flicking". Bielle (talk) 04:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No, thwacking simply implies striking flat surfaces, such as nail and forehead. When one flicks ashes off one's jacket it is not painful or violent.  Ever heard the threat "I'll flick you like an effing lightswitch"?  Earlobe flicking sounds like something kids who have internalized a non-violent policy would find terrorizing, not real humans.  I mean seriously, is flicking some sort of emo thing that developed amongst suburban kids of questionable masculinity during the second Clinton administration? μηδείς (talk) 05:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Kids of questionable masculinity = girls. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Many children (for whatever reason) feel the need to torment each other without causing serious injury. When I was at school in the 1960s, many teachers freely participated in this activity too. Throwing small missiles like sticks of chalk or wooden blackboard erasers, pinching, pulling hair, twisting ears, arms and wrists were all in their repertoire. In our day it was thought to be character building. How times have changed. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The point of flicking someone's ear (Yorkshire, Northern England, usage as well, by the way) was that it was unexpected. You didn't threaten someone with a dire ear-flicking (you threatened them with a smack in the gob), you crept up behind them and flicked their ear when they weren't expecting it. This was in the late 1960s/early 1970s, when the Clinton administration wasn't even a distant ship's smoke on the horizon. Tonywalton Talk 18:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I have to plead ignorance. I've never done this, had it done to me, nor seen it done.  A unexpected ear boxing or a stab in the back, though, that's different. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about when I was about 8 years old. If you were subject to unexpected stabbings in the back when you were 8 years old I concede you may have been from a rather harder place than I was. Tonywalton Talk 23:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * At seven I was just punching unsuspecting people in the solar plexus. There was the prepubescent practice of giving indian burns, but that was more of a dare and an endurance contest than an unexpected assault. I didn't stab anyone until I was 13, but he should have expected it after he turned around, broke my pencil in half, and then turned back to the front of the classroom. μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Where I come from lethal force is not unheard of for the mildest of infractions, including failure to hold the door for the person behind you. Bus stop (talk) 01:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

LOL! Yeah, you'd be surprised how much better social courtesies are on the street in Spanish Harlem than the Upper East Side. But capping people for dissing you was not yet prevalent in my grade school days. μηδείς (talk) 01:30, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

A word that is always adjacent to one particular other word
This answer was posted here within the last couple of months but Google has failed me. What's the name of a word which unfailingly appears adjacent to one other particular word? Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Like "kith and kin", for example? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  00:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Or like "helter-skelter", both almost meaningless, but together meaning something? Does it have a name different from the case of "kith and kin"? --Omidinist (talk) 04:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * See Siamese twins (linguistics). Mikenorton (talk) 09:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Good article. Thanks. --Omidinist (talk) 10:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Or fossil word? I think the question you are recalling may be this one.--Shantavira|feed me 12:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Bingo! That was the question and the answer.  Thanks, Shantavira.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Or maybe Comet's after cases where both elements of the Siamese twin-pair are fossil words (fossilised Siamese twins?). On a quick scan I couldn't see any such cases.  "Kith and kin" doesn't qualify, because "kin" is used outside that expression, even if "kith" isn't.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * How about "hither and thither", I think that counts. Mikenorton (talk) 18:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There's also "hither and yon". People sometimes say "come hither" when wanting to sound archaic.  It's not entirely fossilised, imo, but it might be considered one of the Mesdemoiselles Havisham of the linguistic community.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how fossilised "come hither" (or "come-hither") is, with some 1 million ghits on the phrase (mainly in "come hither look" or "come-hither eyes"). "Hither", however, on its own, appears to be sleeping with the Cœlecanths. Tonywalton Talk 23:50, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A rather unfortunate choice of species in your metaphor - Coelacanths are not excinct. Roger (talk) 10:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * How would one use "hither" on its own? Or almost any word, for that matter?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  00:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There's "hither and thither". The Mark of the Beast (talk) 03:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, we're already discussing that. Thanks anyway.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  05:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * And yet somehow I missed that. :)  The Mark of the Beast (talk) 07:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I wasn't clear. Rather than "on its own" I meant "other than in the combinations under discussion". I agree, it's not easy to use any word on its own, with the exception of some of the short, pithy words to be used when one hits one's thumb with a hammer. Tonywalton Talk 16:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Flotsam and jetsam?


 * "When push comes to shove". This expression regularly brings these two words together (push and shove) but they both have plenty of usages outside this expression as well. (Also "If push comes to shove".) Bus stop (talk) 01:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Kit and kaboodle. Kit has plenty of other uses, but kaboodle only ever appears with kit. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  12:58, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The expression "the whole kaboodle" is still used, at least in the antediluvian recesses of English usage where I lurk. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * In my experience "muchness" is not much used other than in "much of a muchness". I shall try to work it into conversations.  Wanderer57 (talk) 22:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Can't figure out the indenting, but coelacanths are not fossil-fish; they are still with us, Tonywalton! BrainyBabe (talk) 05:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I've been doing a lot of crossword puzzles lately and I know many examples of this have come up, but my memory is like a um, thing that memories are compared do. However, I'll toss in "fro", as in "he was walking to and fro." -- LarryMac  | Talk  12:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)