Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 July 9

= July 9 =

Turkish baharat includes mint as the major ingredient.
"Turkish baharat includes mint as the key ingredient."

What I want to say is:

"Turkish baharat includes mint as the ingredient that is the largest relative majority."

What I mean by "the ingredient that is the largest relative majority" is a certain mixture may have:
 * 2 parts water
 * 1 part oil
 * 3 parts milk

Milk = "the ingredient that is the largest relative majority"

, relative = in comparison with others

Is there a specific adjective I can replace with "key"?Curb Chain (talk) 06:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * You could use main, principal, chief, foremost or major. Thus "Turkish baharat includes ?mint as the (insert word) ingredient. I'm a little puzzled about the use of 'milk' and 'mint' in your question but that does not affect the grammar issue. Richard Avery (talk) 07:21, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Milk has nothing to do with the sentence, I'm just made that example off the top of my head. I thank you for your reply, and most cordially invite more.Curb Chain (talk) 07:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Is there a word that might have something that can lead the reader to understand "proportion"?Curb Chain (talk) 07:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I had the same problem ages ago when editing Hexagon pools, and I replaced "usually as hexagons" with the clumsy phrase "more often as hexagons than as polygons with any other specific number of sides". You probably can't make it clear in one word, so use lots of words. For instance "Turkish Baharat contains mint, and has more mint in it than any other ingredient". Card Zero  (talk) 08:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't "...with hexagons as the most common polygon" be lot less awkward ? StuRat (talk) 15:06, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep. Nice rewrite job, there. Card Zero  (talk) 15:56, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that entire article needed a rewrite and move, which I've now done. It looked like English was a second language to the original author. StuRat (talk) 16:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm going to merge the whole "similar places around the world" section into List of places with columnar jointed volcanics. The Hexagons Pool article can have "See also: List of places with columnar jointed volcanics" instead. Card Zero  (talk) 16:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I was thinking of doing that myself. StuRat (talk) 02:28, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The second part assumes the first, so it can be shortened: "Turkish Baharat has more mint in it than any other ingredient". --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  09:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * "Turkish Baharat includes mint as its main ingredient", or "the main ingredient of Turkish Baharat is mint", should be fine. To me, this has less potential ambiguity than "key ingredient", and even so, in both it seems very unlikely that someone would interpret the sentence as not meaning mint is the ingredient in the highest proportion. (Of course, it is logically possible for an ingredient to be "key" but not in the highest proportion, but the contexts where that difference matters are few, and that reading is even harder for me to get with "main ingredient" than it is with "key ingredient".) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 09:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The fine distinction being made here (almost certainly useless information, but who knows what a visitor might be looking for) is between:
 * An ingredient present in a larger quantity than any other single ingredient.
 * An ingredient present in a larger quantity than all the other ingredients put together.
 * ... well, that's how I saw the problem, anyway. Might not be what the OP was worrying about.
 * Card Zero (talk) 10:02, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * What I was getting at was that an ingredient can be "key" for a reason other than its quantity. For instance, in many drinks the ingredient present in the largest quantity is water, but some other ingredient that is only present in a very small amount may be what gives it its special flavor. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 07:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * That was how I wrote it first, but I added the preamble words "contains mint, and" because it bothered me somehow. You're probably right. It just seemed all like "huh, mint, where did that come from, is it a reference to something mentioned earlier, why are we talking about mint all of a sudden." If you see what I mean. Card Zero  (talk) 09:56, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Which preamble? Card Zero, that's true, 1. and 2. doesn't matter, 2. just has a lot more of the "key" ingredient.  I'm looking for an adjective that means that it is in bigger proportion than the rest; unfortunately, a mathematical adjective escapes me.Curb Chain (talk) 10:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Not really a preamble, sorry. Now I see a different problem: you want a word like "quantiful" (which I just made up). Words such as "main", "chief", or "prevalent" suggest overwhelming power, which is the wrong concept: and words such as "greatest" and "largest" suggest that the mint is in one solid countable piece. Probably "major ingredient" is the best option. (I'd still like to know if there is any word that does the job of "quantiful", though. There's also "abounding", and similar words - "plentiful" nearly fits - but those all imply "found all over the place" which is again slightly wrong.) Card Zero  (talk) 10:33, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, you are definitely right about all those words; I agree with all those extra semantics that those words are associated with. But I am now totally confused about your preamble comment.Curb Chain (talk) 06:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh. A preamble is an introductory statement, but I used the term to refer to just three introductory words that I had added near the start of the sentence. I wasn't really using the term correctly. Card Zero  (talk) 09:01, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

primary96.42.196.192 (talk) 04:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I think 96.42.196.192 was suggest that mint was the "primary" ingredient of Turkish Baharat, I had been thinking to suggest "modal" but "primary" seems to fit the bill. EdwardLane (talk) 16:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Primary implies first, but I think modal would work better, but that is almost an obscure term for someone who doesn't understand mathematics, and I'm not meaning arithmetic, like simple 1+1.Curb Chain (talk) 09:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Old Norse
What is the Old Norse form of the name Sveinn Knutson?--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 09:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Although not 100% sure I would think that Sveinn Knútsson was the Old Norse form of the name, since it would be spelled Svein Knutsson in modern Norwegian. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry but can I get a 100% sure answer from a person who is skilled in Old Norse and other Scandinavian languages?--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 09:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I see that it was User:Haukurth who added the Old Norse translation of Ælfgifu to the Svein, King of Norway page which I assume (very assuming of me, I know) you are working on. It says on his talk page that he's mostly inactive, but you could leave a message anyway. Seems likely that Haukurth left Sveinn Knútsson untranslated because it's the same in Old Norse. Card Zero  (talk) 09:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Based on this, Saddhiyama is right it's Sveinn Knútsson. Mikenorton (talk) 10:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay thanks a lot everyone!--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 10:22, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind that spelling names consistently is a relatively recent phenomenon (see "Spelling of Shakespeare's name" for a well-documented example in English). Old Norse orthography was not standardised in the way present-day English is. Gabbe (talk) 11:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * True, but a lot of old languages, including Old Norse, have a "neo-standardized" canonical orthography that you're taught when you start learning the language. So even if there are manuscripts or inscriptions where the first name is spelled Svein with just one n or the last name is spelled Knutsson without the acute accent, it would be considered a mistake to spell them that way today. Angr (talk) 12:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Google Translate......
OK, we all know Google Translate is just a bit of fun - especially to us professionals - and no-one takes it incredibly seriously. Still, it can be useful in getting the basic gist of a text in a language one does not speak, so long as you know how to sift through the garbage and rearrange the words into something meaningful. However, how can |en|%E3%81%82%E3%81%A8%E3%81%A7%E3%81%AD this happen?

To those who do not wish to click on the link, that is Google Translate, attempting to translate the simple Japanese phrase 'ato de ne' ('see you later') and churning out 'se you latter'.

There used to be a link saying 'Submit a better translation', but that has been removed. What are we to do now.....? --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * If you click on the translation you can type in your improvement. Angr (talk) 12:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I think you would be surprised how many people do take google translate seriously. I have a website and I am amazed at how many hits are from google translate. I think that people who speak languages without a great web presence use it a lot. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm a professional translator and I take Google Translate seriously, but I know how to use it correctly. If I have a paragraph of running text with no matches in the translation memory, it's much faster for me to run it through GT and then clean up the translation than it is for me to translate it cold. I wouldn't use it to translate out of a language I don't actually know, except as KageTora says, to get the rough gist of what it says. And I'd never dream of using it to translate into a language I don't know. Angr (talk) 13:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * (EC) Oh, Angr, I sometimes use it for the same reason you do - merely as an aid in speeding up translating something that would otherwise have taken a little longer had I done it manually. As I said, you sift through it and rearrange until it's correct (something you have to do with TM from time to time as well, anyway). Getting back to what I was saying - I didn't realise you could type in your improvement. All I could see was the option to 'Use'. Having said that, does this actually get to Mountain View or does it just end up in our [now-]customized translation? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to spend any massive effort in helping GT put myself and Angr out of jobs... ;) I would, however, like to reduce the little sillinesses like my example above at least as much as I can. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  14:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I think your corrections are remembered for the next time, but I'm not 100% sure. Angr (talk) 14:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't. I've tried it. I still get the same incorrect answer. Incidentally, if you press the 'listen' button, you get a voice that says 'south-east you latter'. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:54, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * But how does it remember ? That is, does it remember the corrected translations for each word, changing "se" to "see" and "latter" to "later", or does it just remember that exact phrase ?  Also, does it only remember it for you, or for others, too (which would seem to require a consensus process). StuRat (talk) 14:58, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly, I'm thinking that the Japanese phrase in the example is remembered in Google as a single phrase, and has been given this single, erroneous translation as a single set phrase, rather than as three seperate words (the Japanese words 'ato'+'de'+'ne' do not correspond to 'see'+'you'+'later'). This would mean that Google only knows it as 'se you latter', and does not know that 'se' is a mistake for 'see', nor that 'latter' should have been 'later'. Correcting Google's translation here would only result in correcting it for this phrase pair alone, and not for any others which [coincidentally] may have the same spelling error. If 'mata ashita' ('see you tomorrow') were translated as 'se you tomorrow', for example, then Google would not correct the 'se' just because it had been corrected by the community is the case of 'se you latter'>'see you later', as it would not equate the two mistakes. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  15:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Excellent answers by Angr and KageTora about Google Translate in general and this gloss in particular. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Is it possible that someone came by and gave a "corrected" translation for this phrase, but unfortunately (or deliberately) misspelled the words? Astronaut (talk) 16:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Pop vs. soda
Anyone living in certain parts of the United States will be aware that many of us refer to it as pop, soda, or coke. There is a beautiful map that someone composed here, and my diligent observations have confirmed it 100%, at least in Pennsylvania (what can I say? I'm a language geek and a demographics geek: this stuff is like candy for me) - right down to the county line. I have some questions though after looking at the map: Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:03, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What is to explain the regional differences at all? The South I understand (they have a different dialect), but I don't understand the clean line running through the middle of Pennsylvania/New York/the northern tip of California.
 * Why is the greater St. Louis so ridiculously pro-pop when no one in their vicinity is?
 * Same question with greater Milwaukee, which is itself greater Chicago yet doesn't follow Chicago's rules.
 * What are they calling it in parts of Southern Virginia and North Carolina? I notice a lot of green for "other" there.
 * One thing I'm not curious about: the prevalance of soda in central/southern Florida; they have a large expat population from outside the South.
 * There is more than just Southern dialect in the U.S. See St. Louis dialect, Midland American English. (List of dialects of the English language has many more I would expect there is a map around here somewhere.) Rmhermen (talk) 14:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * has a map but doesn't show St. Louis. has a somewhat contradictory map which shows St. Louis and perhaps explains PA and NY but not Milwaukee. My greatgrandma, a South Midland speaker, called it "so-dee pop" which rhymed with her name Leota ("Low-dee") so I hate to think how she spelled it. Our Names for soft drinks says that "drink" and "cold drink" are common in southern  Virginia and the Carolinas. (Say that where I live and you would always get a beer.) Rmhermen (talk) 14:24, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've often heard "sodee" instead of "soda", especially when being hawked by ballpark vendors: "Hey, cold sodee here!" The prevalence of "Coke" for any kind of soda pop (as with "Kleenex" for any facial tissue, or "Xerox" for any kind of photocopy), I've always taken to be due to the fact of Coke being a prominent southern-made product (from Atlanta, GA). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A language is made up of many elements (words, and also at different levels phonemes, grammatical rules, prosodies etc). There is absolutely no reason to expect the variations in all these to be totally correlated. Variations are substantially correlated (which is why "dialect" and "accent" are useful concepts), but why should you not expect to find some variations as you go from town to town, even neighbourhood to neighbourhood, even when the local dialect is in general the same. --ColinFine (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Exactly, a map of the various terms for "soda" constitutes one isogloss, and dialects are defined by isogloss bundles.


 * In the case of "sodee", older speakers of the Appalachian dialect raised final schwa in words like soda and Virginia to sody and Virginny. (Appalachian Speech, Wolfram & Christian, 1976 http://eric.ed.gov:80/PDFS/ED130511.pdf)  Apparently final y and final schwa were in free variation in many American dialects at some point, hence "Santy Claus" and "Extry, extry, read all about it!" and the corresponding reverse hypercorrection of Missouri to Missourah.  μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * In many parts of the English speaking world outside the US "soda" is plain carbonated water - as in "scotch and soda". What do Americans call it to differentiate it from the sweet and fizzy beverages that they normally call "soda"? Roger (talk) 11:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Soda water if you want to distinguish it from sweet drinks, Seltzer or Club soda on the grocer's shelf. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

What does alle mean?
Hallo. At the moment I am translating the article St Giles-without-Cripplegate into the German Wikipedia. In that article there is a quote in some acient, presumely pre-Shakespeare English:


 * The xii day of September at iiii of cloke in the mornynge was sent Gylles church at Creppyl gatte burnyd, alle hole save the walles, stepull, belles and alle, and how it came God knoweth. (original Source)

Acutally pretty much is figured out, actually asking at our reference desk we couldn't reach consensus what the second alle does mean.

My first guess was aisle, as in save the walls, steeple, bells and aisle but others hinted that aisle in Middle English was ile (see Merriam-Webster) and suggested rather hall but that was halle in Middle English.

Any thoughts? --Matthiasb (talk) 15:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Not all friends in English are false friends. All (or alle in German) makes perfect sense here. Here is a version with modernised spelling and more helpful punctuation:
 * The 12th day of September at 3 o'clock in the morning was Saint Giles' Church at Creppyl[?] gate burned – all whole save the walls – steeple, bells and all, and how it came God knows.
 * Hans Adler 15:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Cripplegate, incidentally. Tevildo (talk) 18:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, "four o'clock in the morning", since it's iiii and not iii. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:00, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * (e/c) I assume "all". St. Giles church was burned, all whole (i.e. wholly) save (i.e. except) the walls: steeple, bells and all (were burned). Searching EO for "alle" backs this up.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It all makes sense but I never would have imagined to understand the comma after walles in the sense of a colon. Thank you, guys. --Matthiasb (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand that punctuation is a relatively modern addition to the English Language, and (without being able to confirm this) the colon might be a later addition than the comma was, which might explain your confusion. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:16, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I read it slightly differently (and I'm probably wrong) as St. Giles church was burned, all whole (i.e. wholly) save (i.e. except) the walls, steeple, bells and all (i.e. etc). EdwardLane (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The buck's gotta stop somewhere.
"The buck's gotta stop somewhere."

It seems a kind of famous quote. What does it mean?--Analphil (talk) 17:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It apparently refers to the dealer button in poker. See pass the buck. Card Zero  (talk) 17:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Possibly the most famous instance - and one which helped popularise the phrase in political circles - was the use by US president Harry Truman. See Buck passing for information on that, and other things. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the significance of "I'm From Missouri" on the reverse of the sign? Is it that people from Missouri are famed for their responsibility? That side of the sign would normally be turned towards the president, though, so maybe it was just something he needed to be reminded of regularly? Card Zero  (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * People from Missouri are known for their dubiousness. "I'm from Missouri, I doubt it."  The Mark of the Beast (talk) 19:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's also called the "show me state". Adam Bishop (talk) 19:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would think that fact, along with Harry Truman being from Missouri, are the explanation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh @ "I'm from Missouri, I doubt it."  Reminds me of something confusing I heard recently: "I love you, me neither".  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]
 * Je t'aime... moi non plus, presumably. Tevildo (talk) 20:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the one ... let's keep looking. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Kanbun readers
I am looking for somebody who can read kanbun as I need a translation of a few (not many) entries in the Shoku Nihongi. If you can make sense of texts like this, please let me know. It would go into this article. bamse (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)