Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 22

= June 22 =

How are you? Ca va? etc.
In all the languages I know of (mostly European but also Kinyarwandan) people frequently ask each other the equivalent of "how are you?" and invariably respond that they are either good or fine. This doesn't make a great deal of sense to me - why do we bother asking the question when we know the answer already and when we know the answer is often not truthful? Also, are there any languages in which people either don't ask a question like it or where people answer more truthfully? (Could we create an article so that How are you and Ca va are not about albums?) SmartSE (talk) 13:11, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In Inuktitut, asking someone "How are you?" (roughly kanuipiit?) would get you a response of "I am not 'How'!" (roughly kanuiŋituŋa), at least according to my old Inuktitut prof. I've probably butchered the Inuktitut spelling (it's been 15 years since my last class), but you get the idea. Matt Deres (talk) 13:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily agree that it tells you nothing. Answers tend to vary between a slight negative and a slight positive, but can give an indication. In my estimation, people do it to show some sort of care whether the person is well or not. It also gives either party an opportunity to raise any significant issues about that sort of topic, such as recent illness, family issues, etc. I also think it provides an Hy there, could somenone tell me the meaning of the word "sed"? It appears in the sentence: Dura lex sed lex, which was translated into: [the] law [is] harsh, but [it is the] law. Thanks. Flamarande (talk) 16:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

In that sentence, "sed" means "but". I've checked my Collins Latin dictionary, it is the only real meaning (very slight variations are given). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

icebreaker - if you're in a professional meeting, starting with "hello" and then jumping in to the mainstay of the meeting would seem awkward. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Time has accustomed people to greet each other in an acceptable way that shows both friendliness, concern and politeness. Consider your feelings if you walk into a store/shop and the employee said "Yes?", (A little Basil Fawlty I think.) The greeting has become somewhat ritualistic and has lost, to some degree, its intention. The way you greet another person also depends on your relationship and the context of the meeting. I'd be surprised if you greet everyone you meet in the same way and vice versa. The tone of the greeting will also change depending on the person, "How are you?", compared with "How are you"? or "How are you"? There are many other greetings available, but ...How are you? seems to have settled as the default. Truth doesn't really come into it except if the person is a familiar or friend and then you may wish to indicate your real feelings. Social convention can be a strong driver. Richard Avery (talk) 13:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In German it's actually quite acceptable and not uncommon, though not necessarily wise, to give a truthful response. This is one way in which Germans tend to misbehave seriously when they speak English. Hans Adler 13:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just last night my French teacher was saying the same thing about the French as Hans Adler says about Germans – they reply with a truthful summary of their recent problems, and it gets them into trouble when speaking English. She described the French model as a bonding mechanism, i.e. by revealing your problems you give the other person a chance to make a supportive or constructive response, which strengthens your relationship. Lfh (talk) 13:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Even in English, at least in my experience, how are you isn't always a greeting substitute, and can also be used as a genuine question asking about the other person's current state or mood. In telephone conversations, for example, it can be used after the actual greeting. ("Hi Alice, this is Bob." - "Oh, hi Bob, how are you?" "I'm fine, how are you?") See for example the chapter " 'How are you?' sequences" in An Introduction to Conversation Analysis (2011), referring to Schegloff (1986). ---Sluzzelin talk  14:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Hans Adler. In German, Wie geht's dir? tends to be taken at face value as an actual request for information, unlike English How are you? which is a purely formulaic synonym of "Hello". On the other hand, Wie geht's? can be formulaic in German, and when it is, it can be answered (in Berlin at least) simply with "Danke", which seems to English speakers to be a very infelicitous answer. ("How are you?" — "Thank you." — WHAH????) —Angr (talk) 14:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In my experience, "how are you?" would only be synonomous with "hello" in business or formal settings. If I ask it of my friends or family, I expect and get a response that is by no means formulaic. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:15, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * See the etymology of "Howdy" at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=howdy&searchmode=none.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Greetings are formalized signals of friendliness and respect. The actual underlying meaning is often irrelevant. It is interesting that in Zulu the exchange is literally:


 * Sawubona "I (we) see you.
 * Yebo Yes.
 * Wena unjani? "How are you?"
 * Ngiyaphila, wena unjani? "I am alive, and you?"
 * Ngiyaphila. I'm alive.

μηδείς (talk) 15:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * [edit conflict] In my neck of the woods (Northeastern US), it is acceptable to respond to "How are you?" in a range of ways, in descending order of happiness from "Great!" to "Good" to "Fine" to " Okay". That last response really means "Miserable", and everyone knows it.  The person hearing " Okay" then has the option of ignoring it and proceeding to business or asking "Oh, is something wrong?"  The only kind of response that isn't acceptable is anything negative, because that would obligate the listener to show sympathy, and the rule for the "How are you?" greeting is that the one who offers the greeting has to be given a response that doesn't require the greeter to respond in return.  So, the greeting does show a minimal concern for the other person's well-being.  It's like saying "I recognize that you are another human being with feelings even if I don't have time to hear about those feelings in detail."  Marco polo (talk) 15:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In his book Born to Kvetch, Michael Wex characterizes How are you? as a provocation in Yiddish. From a review in the New York Times "To Provoke in Yiddish, Try 'How Are You?'":
 * "How are you?," a perfectly innocent question in English, is a provocation in Yiddish, which does not lend itself to happy talk. "How should I be?" is a fairly neutral answer to the question. Theoretically it is possible to say "gants gut" ("real good"), but this is a phrase that the author says he has never heard in his life. "As a response to a Yiddish question, it marks you as someone who knows some Yiddish words but doesn't really understand the language," he writes."
 * ---Sluzzelin talk  16:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In German, on the other hand, I've been told not to say Ganz gut because it means something less than Gut; it's sort of like Marco polo's "Fine" or " Okay" above, and leads the questioner to wonder what's wrong. —Angr (talk) 16:30, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Amongst the British generation who lived through two World Wars, the stock answer "Mustn't grumble!" is common enough. Alansplodge (talk) 17:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * My experience in France is that "ça va" doesn't really mean "how is it going" but just "is it going", and the response is just "oui, ça va!". If I say "ça va" back, I get the same response. No one has ever said "comment ça va" to me - the last time I heard that was from French teachers in elementary school (to which the class responded, in unison, sounding as bored as possible, "ça va bien merci et vous?"). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In Mandarin, the typical greeting nǐ hǎo etymologically means "You good?" but no one considers it a question, you just respond with the same nǐ hǎo. On the other hand, if you directly ask nǐ hǎo ma? (you good [question particle]) or nǐ hái hǎo ma? (you still good [question particle], "are you ok?"), people do generally seem to answer it truthfully (in fact, if you ask that at all it often implies that you're concerned about them for some reason, and in my experience people look at you a little funny if you ask that when there's no cause for concern). The same goes for other questions comparable to "how are you"-- jìnlái zěnmeyàng? (recently how, "how have you been recently?"), jìnlái hái hǎo ma? (recently still good [question particle], "have you been ok recently?"), although these last two examples sometimes have the added implication that you haven't seen the person in a while, and thus someone might look at you funny if you say it when you just talked to them the day before. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 18:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In Estuary English the usual greeting is yawrite and the standard response is yernorbarnyew. Gandalf61 (talk) 18:38, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The traditional English greeting was "How do you do?", to which the only correct response was ... "How do you do?". Nobody ever considered it a question requiring any kind of answer.  Now, sometimes "How are you?", particularly when asked by strangers such as check-out operators, is the start of a mini-conversation:
 * How are you?
 * I'm fine, thanks. (Or "Well, thanks", or "Good", or whatever)
 * That's good. Are you doing anything special this weekend?
 * And on it goes. They're obviously trained to get into this level of social inquiry.  A total perversion of what "How are you?" was supposed to be about.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Funny you should bring that up, as I was just thinking about the way it was done in the 1939 film The Wizard of Oz (one of your cousins?) which follows your description and which I always thought was a bit odd:
 * Dorothy: How do you do?
 * Scarecrow: How do you do?
 * Dorothy: Very well, thank you.
 * Scarecrow: Oh, I'm not feeling at all well. [Continue with plot line about being a scarecrow who can't scare a crow, the song "If I Only Had a Brain", etc.]
 * ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Not my cousin, my great-grand uncle. Next time a check-out person of the appropriate age, sex and cuteness asks me if I have any special plans for the weekend, I'm gonna ask them what they had in mind and what time they get off. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  13:52, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Russian does have an equivalent question to "How are you?" (Как дела? means, loosely, "How are things?"), but whereas the default English answer is something like 'good' or 'fine', in Russian it's нормально, which just means "normal". If you say "good", then it implies something good actually did happen to you. Voikya (talk) 21:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's a Budweiser ad from a few years ago that illustrates the different ways that "How ya doin'?" is used in American English. As a bonus, one of the "How ya doin'?" guys is recognizable as a recurring lawyer character in the Law & Order TV series. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:12, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * While the two characters forming the conventional modern Chinese for "hello", "ni hao", mean "you" and "good" respectively, it is not answered by "I am good". Rather, the addressee responds with the same "you" "good". In this context it is used just like "hello", and means something like "I hope you are well", or a non-time specific "good morning/afternoon/evening", rather than "how are you?"
 * Where the first speaker means to specifically ask about the other person's welfare, the question would be more specifically phrased, as "how are you?" or "how have you been recently?" However, such questions would be used to ask specifically about the other person, and would not be used as generic greeting. The response would also usually be more detailed than "fine, thanks". Nor is it always asked of someone in a conversation. Traditionally on casually meeting someone the thing to ask is "have you eaten?" or "have you had [breakfast/lunch/dinner] yet?" In other casual social settings you might ask "have you been busy lately?" or "what have you been busy with lately?" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops, just noticed that Chinese has been addressed already. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A linguine of linguists, and no one has yet mentioned Phatic expression, "one whose only function is to perform a social task, as opposed to conveying information". The significance of "how are you" is discussed. See also the "see also". BrainyBabe (talk) 08:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I once asked an elderly relative how he was and was treated to a litany of his many and varied medical complaints. The next time, I talked about the weather. Alansplodge (talk) 21:38, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * "Somehow", "Getting by", "It's been worse", "Same old poverty" are pretty standard answers to "How are you?" in Poland. We're a nation of complainers. — Kpalion(talk) 07:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Has anyone mentioned the xkcd strip "Small Talk" yet? It uses "What's up", but that's close enough to "How are you".  &#x2013; b_jonas 17:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

verbatim
definition of is vague... seeking how verbatim or sounds like can be used as "what if this were to be" scenario

example; I wish to speak verbatim ... so what follows is; if this were to be the case then this is the result...

Kind of a negotiating term... if this is the circumstance then this should be the result... but... if not "still verbatim" then if this is then the result should be.............. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.67.81.108 (talk) 15:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I think you are asking what type of wording one might use when describing two different outcomes that could result depending on which of two conditions apply. Am I understanding you correctly? Bus stop (talk) 15:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand either. I thought you might want an example of how the word "verbatim" is used. If you do, then an example is:


 * "The newspaper reported the speech verbatim".


 * That means that the newspaper repeated all the words of the speech, without summarising or leaving anything out.


 * If we haven't responded to your question, please try asking it again. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The poster is looking for a word that means "hypothetical" but sounds like "verbatim". Their example is very clear: "I wish to speak hypothetically'. They're looking for a word that sounds or looks like "verbatim" instead of sounding and looking like 'hypothetically', while having the meaning of the latter.  (They described this meaning very clearly.) --188.28.141.244 (talk) 17:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * After reading it through a couple times, you're right, but I think when he says "seeking how verbatim ... can be used as 'what if this were to be'" he is misunderstanding the meaning of the word verbatim. Aacehm (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No: they don't misunderstand the word "verbatim", they don't know the word at all. It's just a word their word sounds like.  Here is a cross translation of the original question:

Hi, I'm looking for a word that's on the tip of my tongue, I've heard it before but I can't remember it now. I don't know the exact definition of the word. It sounds like a latin word like "verbatim", it would be a word that sounds like "verbatim" but it means "hypothetical" like, let's make an assumption for the sake of argument. So an example of this word that sounds like "verbatim" would be "I wish to speak 'verbatim' [i.e. hypothetically]." Then the rest of what you said would have the meaning, if this were to be the case, then this would be the result. So you would use this word that sounds like 'verbatim' in a negotiating setting for example. "I don't know if proposing a monthly fee is the right way to think about this at all. But let's say, 'verbatim' [i.e. hypothetically], that this is how we would go about it.  Then, 'verbatim', how would the cost be figured?  Per user?  Per megabyte?  How -- again, all this is just 'verbatim' -- do you envision this particular ('verbatim!!!') scenario?"
 * That's what the poster means. The poster has no idea what "verbatim" means, just as half of you don't know what the word "prolix" means.  All they want to do is come up with the word they're thinking of.  I don't know what it is either, I've just translated their question.  --188.28.141.244 (talk) 18:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Arguendo is the standard (legal) Latin word with the meaning requested - is that sufficiently like "verbatim" to be the answer? Tevildo (talk) 19:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any word that sounds like "verbatim" but means "hypothetical". The question posed by the Original Poster is not as clear as it could be, but I find the interpretation of it by 188.28.141.244 to be farfetched. Bus stop (talk) 19:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, I'm assuming that 188's text is an actual translation of the original question, not just a paraphrase of it. _Without_ 188's text, I would suggest "literally" or "strictly" - to adapt a question from a couple of weeks ago, one could say "Strictly speaking, 'due by Monday' means that the essay has to be in before midnight on Sunday, but you should be OK handing it in at 8am on Monday morning.", or "Taken literally, 'due on Monday' means that you have until 11.59pm on Monday night to hand it in, but it would be better to do so before the office closes." Tevildo (talk) 19:29, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

cross translation of OP
Bus Stop suggests my proposed translation is farfetched. Could they (or others) provide what they think is the better one here? Line by line, mine is: >verbatim "Verbatim"

>definition of is vague... The definition of the word "verbatim" is unclear to me. [=I don't know what it means] > seeking how verbatim or sounds like can be used as "what if this were to be" scenario What I'm looking for is how either "verbatim" or a word that sounds like "verbatim" can be used as "what if this were to be" scenario >example; I wish to speak verbatim ... so what follows is; if this  were to be the case then this is the result... For example: ''I wish to speak "verbatim" [or as mentioned above "or sounds like"] ... '' so [having thus introduced the following sentence] what follows is: "if this were to be the case then this is the result..." [in other words, that's what the effect of starting with "I wish to speak "verbatim" [or sounds like]" is].

>Kind of a negotiating term... if this is the circumstance then this >should be the result... but... if not "still verbatim" then if this >is then the result should be.............. as translated above.

You guys disagree? What do you think the better translation is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.141.244 (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if the OP were to post his question in his native language, so that someone could translate it, the situation might be easier to deal with. I agree with Bus Stop that your paraphrase of the question is unlikely to be what the OP meant. Tevildo (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine what else could possibly have induced them to write the words "definition of is vague". Their example usage, however, is crystal-clear (and I don't think under dispute) and they wrote the words "or sounds like".  There is nothing else on God's green Earth that could have induced them to produce an example sentence as clear as day and the words seeking how verbatim or sounds like can be used to...  They want the word "verbatim" or one that sounds like it.  I frankly don't understand how there can be any disagreement on this point.  --188.28.141.244 (talk) 20:07, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the OP is a non-native speaker of English, everything the OP has written is in idiomatic English, just confused. It sounds like a (verbatim) recording of a confused, oral question albeit in a shortened form which brings to mind military report style or telegram style, which I think may be due to the OP's occupation, or it may be the way the OP thinks the question should be made succinct. If you heard this question in real life, you might ask the questioner to repeat slowly and more clearly. If the OP comes around again I think it would be more useful to ask them to write the entire question out in full, than to ask them to write it in their "native language". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Italiano
Ciao amichi! Ozzie on holiday in italy here, my Italian is pretty good but theres one piont i want to ask on. When a letter is doubled (as ss in benissimo it seems even though the stress usually is on the pentult it moves to the one immediatel before the doubled consonant. Is this observation accurate, and how did this come on? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.37.112.163 (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. When a consonant letter is doubled, it means the consonant sound is pronounced longer (a geminate consonant). It's completely unrelated to the position of word stress. —Angr (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * However, you are correct that in adjectives ending in -issimo, the stress is on the antepenult. (As Angr says, the doubling of the consonant is unrelated.)  Marco polo (talk) 21:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Swedish: "Vemska la leba"
Old Swedes I knew years ago used to sing a song on a Swede's birthday which went something like "Vemska la leba, vemska la leba, vemska la leba (something) hundrede ore, (something) la leba, (something) la leba, (something) la leba (something) hundrede ore. (Something) Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!" It translated something like "May you live a hundred years." The old folks have passed, and I would like to know the Swedish words and an accurate translation. Thanks. Edison (talk) 23:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * See full lyrics here. --Theurgist (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * An attempt for a translation:


 * You can substitute han (he) with du, hon, ni, de (thou, she, you (pl), they), without having to make any other changes.
 * Corrections by Swedish speakers are welcome. I myself don't quite get the horse part. --Theurgist (talk) 01:58, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a reference to a person with a noose around his neck being placed on the back of a horse, and getting hanged when the horse bolts and he falls off. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The first stanza is the only one used commonly (kind of like The Star-Spangled Banner), the other four are mostly used for kids. They have a specific form: each time a verb is first used intransitively with a lethal meaning (skjutas "be shot", hängas "be hanged", dränkas "be drowned"). The subsequent transitive usage of the same verb changes its meaning to something non-lethal (skjutas i en skottkärra "be pushed in a wheelbarrow"), thus cathartically saving the day. I doubt hängas på en häst bak-och-fram is to be interpreted as referring to a form of capital punishment. Gabbe (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, I see. In that case, perhaps what is meant is that the person is seated or placed (rather than "hanged" in English) on a horse facing its tail, rather than its head. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 17:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Clearly a closely related ditty, but memory insists (from hearing it dozens of times at gatherings over the years) that it was something more like "Vem ska la leva." Maybe "Who should live." Edison (talk) 02:36, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "Ja må han leva" is the Swedish "Happy birthday to you"&mdash;a fairly universal song in Sweden. That being said, I've heard several other "happy birthday to you"-songs commonly used throughout Sweden, so what you heard might be a regional or rural variant. The word la is a dialectal form of the conjunction väl, prominent in western Sweden. The translation of vem ska la leva is something like "who should live, then?". I wouldn't completely rule out that this is a variant from some small community in west-coast Sweden. Gabbe (talk) 09:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the correction, Gabbe. I think I messed up dränka with dricka. Now I'm sure I'll never mess them up again. --Theurgist (talk) 10:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Is there a page somewhere which shows how to annotate music in Wikipedia? I would like to post the melody to see if it is familiar. What I heard was nothing like the English "Happy Birthday." It goes (with closely spaced noted indicating short notes):
 * C C CC (down to)G, E E EE C, (up to)G GGAGFEE D DD, F F FF D, E E EE C, D D DCBAB C E GC. Edison (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ja må han leva is available in several clips on Youtube. To clarify what I said above, I didn't mean to imply that Ja må han leva has the same melody as "Happy birthday to you", I meant that it has the same usage. The melody you posted here appears similar enough to Ja må han leva. Gabbe (talk) 00:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The Swedish Youtube clip is exactly the melody. It was likely familiar to Swedes from various parts of the country who emigrated to the US in the 1920's, since the persons in question were not from the same town. Edison (talk) 03:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The melody is reminiscent of, but different from, the German "Hoch soll er leben", which is also sung on birthdays. —Angr (talk) 06:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * ...as is the Dutch Lang zal hij leven. Gabbe (talk) 20:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)