Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 27

= June 27 =

What does the Alaskan accent sound like
What does the Alaskan accent sound like Neptunekh2 (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Definitely not like Welsh. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  01:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * During the New Deal, the Roosevelt administration settled many (for Alaska then, not for the Midwest) distressed farmers in the relatively undeveloped and unpopulated lands of the Territory of Alaska under a version of the Homestead Act. When the question of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin's accent first arose during the 2008 campaign, I read that the original settlers from Minnesota and other upper Midwestern states, many of them coming themselves from Scandinavian stock, established the common accent that subsequent waves of immigrants tended to follow (Sarah Palin herself was born in Idaho, before her family moved to Alaska). So if you're identifying an Alaskan accent as something similar to the way Sarah Palin speaks, that's a variant of the Scandinavian-based accents of Minnesota and Wisconsin. If you have a sharp ear, you may be able to discern similarities between Gov. Palin's accent and that of the two current Republican presidential candidates who are from Minnesota: U.S. Representative Michele Bachmann and former Gov. Tim Pawlenty. (Or with former Minnesota Governor, presidential candidate and professional wrestling star Jesse Ventura.)
 * ¶ Incidentally, the resettled Midwestern farmers feeling good reason to be grateful to FDR and the New Deal, tended to vote for Democrats; but later waves of conservative oil and gas workers from the petroleum fields of Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana and the Southwest made Alaska one of the more reliably Republican states in the Union. After her admission as a state in 1959, Alaska very narrowly voted for Richard Nixon (R) over John F. Kennedy (D) in 1960, then for Lyndon Johnson (D) in 1964, but since then has always voted for Republican presidential candidates, usually with some of the highest Republican percentages in the nation. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * To my ears, Palin sounds kind of Minnesotan/Dakotan, and Tina Fey kind of used that type of accent when imitating her. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sarah Palin is of course not the only Alaskan on the planet, but like Sarah Palin, a large portion of people who currently live in Alaska weren't born there. (Mike Gravel, who was also in the 2008 Presidential election, is originally from Massachusetts.) So you hear accents from all over the country in Alaska. And Alaska Natives have accents that are different from white peoples' accents, and both are different from Asians' accents. I really doubt there can be said to be one uniquely identifiable Alaskan accent. —Angr (talk) 05:34, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * American accents tend to become homogenized as you move westward, reflecting how these areas were settled, and Alaska is no exception. In the Eastern U.S., there are often recognizably distinct accents within a few miles of each other (for example, a trained ear can hear the difference in accent between Lowell, Massachusetts and Boston, Massachusetts, despite them being seperated by less than 40 miles), often there are 3-4 very unique accents within a single state on the Atlantic Seaboard.  However, as you move west, these tend to get homogenized into a few very broad accents covering large geographic areas; thus there's a general "midwestern" accent; a general "desert southwest" accent, a general "California" accent.  You'd have a hard time picking out someone from Detroit as being distinct from someone from, say, Indianapolis based purely on their accent.  Sarah Palin's accent is that of a general "midwesterners" accent, I don't think if you dropped it in the middle of a bunch of people from Iowa, Illinois, and Indiana you could necessarily pick out the Alaskan from the bunch.  If you did the same thing with, say, someone from Brooklyn, New York or Savannah, Georgia, they'd be very easy to spot.  -- Jayron  32  02:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Palin has a Midwestern accent? Not a chance.  A Minnesota or N. Wisconsin accent perhaps, but it would be very easy to differentiate her accent from someone in Des Moines or Peoria or Indy.  Googlemeister (talk) 16:22, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Trap basalt - etymology
In geology, a large area of basalt rock produced by volcanic action is known as a flood basalt or "trap basalt". Our article on the Deccan Traps says that the term "trap" is derived from the Dutch word for stairs. However, Siberian Traps says that "trap" is derived from the Swedish word for stairs. Does anyone know which etymology is correct ? Gandalf61 (talk) 08:53, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * A good dictionary should tell you. The OED says: "trap, n.5 A dark-coloured igneous rock more or less columnar in structure: now extended to include all igneous rocks which are neither granitic nor of recent volcanic formation.  Etymology:  < Swedish trapp" Random House on reference.com also says Swedish, from Middle Low German (meaning 3).  Merriam-Webster doesn't have it as a separate meaning. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:26, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Just off the top of my head, English is the only Germanic language that does not use "trap", or a variant therof, to mean "step" - so whether it is said to come from Dutch, German or Swedish is neither here nor there. Given the Sankrit origin mentioned below I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that it can be traced all the way back to PIE. Roger (talk) 12:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Trapdoor? --TammyMoet (talk) 18:10, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, but "trap" as used in Deccan Traps, Siberian Traps and Emeishan Traps is a technical geology term, so it must have been coined within, say, the last 200 years, and the geologist who first used the term presumably took it from a specific European language, most likely their native language (I am not buying the Sanskrit theory). Anyway, OED is a good enough source for me, so I'm going with Swedish. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There are also plenty of sources that say it derives from a sanskrit word also meaning step e.g. . Mikenorton (talk) 10:36, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That's absolutely hideous. I doubt there's many sources outside that though. --  the Great   Gavini  11:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It looks like that most of those sources have actually taken the Sanskrit origin from 'Deccan Traps' where Deccan is from the Sanskrit and Trap is from the Swedish according to this - I should have looked into this a bit more closely before responding. Mikenorton (talk) 13:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The Dutch article nl:Vloedbasalt calls it trapp. The double p is a clear sign that Dutch got it as a loan word. The Dutch word for 'stairs' in accordance with Dutch orthography is written with a single p.
 * Svensk etymologisk ordbok says: 2. Trapp (en bergart), 1758 (Svab, Cronstedt) = da. trap (eng. trap från nord.), till följ., efter det trappstegsformade utseende, som stenarten stundom företer. which means 2. Trapp (a rock type), 1758 (Svab, Cronstedt) = Danish trap (English trap from Norse), derived from the following word [the word for 'stairs'] motivated by the stairway-like formations, in which the rock type sometimes occurs.
 * That means the term is from Swedish, coined by Swedish geologists von Swab and/or Cronstedt (Försök til mineralogie, eller mineral-rikets upställning), but it is probably from a dialectal form (or Norwegian) and thus lacking the final a that is present in the Swedish trappa. Could be Norwegian because on page 227 Cronstedt says that Drammen in Norway is an important trapp site. But on the following pages Cronstedt also mentions other sites in Norway and in Sweden. It's likely that Cronstedt/von Swab took the local dialectal term common at one of the sites and used it for their writings. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 13:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent response - thank you very much. Your barnstar is in the post. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

vegetables
what vegetable is spelled with these nine letters: gnieebrau — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.51.81.177 (talk) 11:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Aubergine Maid Marion (talk) 12:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * And you can see pictures and descriptions of aubergines at our article, aubergine. 86.164.67.252 (talk) 12:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * But aubergines are not vegetables, they are fruit. DuncanHill (talk) 15:12, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's still widely considered a vegetable (just like the tomato). This website lists it under vegetables, and our own article says that in Indian cuisine it's sometimes called "the king of vegetables". I wouldn't be surprised if the clue for a word puzzle described it as a vegetable. Personally, I also always think of it first and foremost as a vegetable. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 16:18, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Tomatoes and aubergines are fruits (and so are pumpkins, zucchini and cucumbers), but that doesn't mean they aren't vegetables. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. They're fruits because they're the fleshy, seed-bearing parts of a plant used for food. They're vegetables because they're edible parts of plants. —Angr (talk) 19:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Terminology depends on the context. They're fruits according to botanical classification, but vegetables for culinary purposes, which is by far the most common context in which we encounter them.  Imagine a fruit and cheese platter or a fruit salad that contain slices or chunks of raw aubergine, in the blinkered belief that they're a fruit for all time and in all circumstances, merely on the say so of botanists who might not know the first thing about culinary affairs - what a turn off.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:10, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Very true. In fact a vegetable doesn't even have to be a plant; mushrooms are (culinary) vegetables but no longer considered plants (though they were not so very long ago).  And a culinary fruit might not be a botanical fruit (rhubarb, for example).
 * In the case of eggplant, I don't think there's any doubt it's a culinary vegetable. Not that I necessarily see the connection with serving it raw.  You wouldn't serve rhubarb raw, either. --Trovatore (talk) 01:53, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, but in the 2 cases I mentioned (cheese platter and fruit salad) the ingredients are all raw. Even cooked aubergine in these dishes would be a complete no-no.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, eggplant pie rrrghh . --Trovatore (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Was that a homework question? HiLo48 (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I learned a new word: blinkered. The alliteration of blinkered belief isn't bad either. Bus stop (talk) 02:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy to be of service. It's not far removed from "Yes, well, that's the kind of blinkered, philistine pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage.  You sit there on your loathsome spotty behinds, squeezing blackheads, not giving a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist .........".  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:26, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm struggling to figure out why artists are saddled with the burden of of always seeming to be struggling. Do these cliche-ridden commentators wear blinders or something? Bus stop (talk) 04:08, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think Bus stop knows about the secret Mason's handshake, JackofOz - best keep shtum ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:38, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Is that related to the Mason jar? Bus stop (talk) 04:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's what everyone needs to remember about vegetables and fruits:
 * Culinary definition of them is that a vegetable has primarily savory applications, while a fruit has primarily sweet applications.
 * Botanical definition is that a fruit is the seed-bearing portion of a plant. Botanists don't use the term vegetable, because it is a purely culinary term.  Nearly all culinary fruits are also botanical fruits (i.e. all things you think of as fruit, which you eat, also happen to be biologically fruit, with the notable exception of rhubarb).  However, a LARGE number of culinary vegetables are also botanical fruits.  Think of squash and cucumbers and eggplant and chili peppers and tomatos... No one thinks of a chili pepper as a fruit, for eating purposes, but how is it functionally different (biologically speaking) from an apple or an orange?  -- Jayron  32  02:35, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Rhubarb is not the only item that is not a botanical fruit, but may be considered a culinary fruit (as well as a culinary vegetable). Consider this clause from the European Union's Council Directive 2001/113/EC relating to fruit jams, jellies and marmalades, etc.: "for the purposes of this Directive, tomatoes, the edible parts of rhubarb stalks, carrots, sweet potatoes, cucumbers, pumpkins, melons and water-melons are considered to be fruit" (emphasis mine). — Kpalion(talk) 05:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Carrots are fruits, eh? How do you like them apples, Bugs?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  06:11, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Eggs are both vegetables and fruits by that definition. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It is possible to make jam out of watermelon? I would not think it is thick enough.  Googlemeister (talk) 16:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I imagine it would taste pretty bland, but apparently it is possible, otherwise Afrikaans-speakers wouldn't need the word wildewaatlemoenkonfytresepteboekassistentsraadgewer, meaning "assistant advisor for a wild watermelon jam cookbook". Or perhaps "need" is putting it too strongly. --Antiquary (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know about watermelon jam, but watermelon rind preserves are sometimes made. Lady  of  Shalott  04:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Unknown Korean words
I frequently heard 2 Korean words which roughly sound as "grosmida" and "grcho". What do they mean?--178.180.24.62 (talk) 17:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't speak Korean, my only knowledge of the language stems from watching Dae Jang Geum. The words you describe sound like kurosimnida and kureso (I suck at romanization of Korean, thank you). Both mean, IIRC, something like "alright" or "fine", the difference being (I think) that the ending -imnida is used for polite speaking. Again, I don't speak a word of Korean, so this is the best I can do. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 18:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, they mean "That is so," "That's true," or something similar. They're both polite forms, with 그렇습니다 being more formal, and 그렇죠 being slightly closer to casual. --Kjoonlee 07:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)