Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 4

= June 4 =

To Kill A Mockingbird
When does the narrator discuss the townspeople all looking alike because of long-distance consanguine incest (so to speak)? Schyler ( one language ) 05:10, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This sounds more like a question for the Humanities reference desk. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 05:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yah you're probably right. Sorry. Schyler  ( one language ) 14:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Deity pronouns in Chinese
I have noticed in my participation in Chinese churches in the US that the pronouns 祂 and 祢 are used in reference to God. However, I don't recall seeing these characters used in Mainland China. Are they used by Christians/churches in that country? 98.116.65.221 (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have not seen it used there, although I have seen 他 and 你. Chinese pronouns has more information. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 10:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In my experience they are only seen in texts from Hong Kong or Taiwan, or written by someone with a Hong Kong or Taiwan background.
 * Have a look at the webiste of the official Catholic church in China for some examples of references to God in mainland China. Btw, it's an interesting website for those interested in the issue of religion in China. On the same main page you have both articles attacking the Vatican from a Chinese government perspective, as well as articles attacking the the official Chinese church from a Vatican perspective. It's almost like there are two separate people with opposing viewpoints writing on the same website, the church on the one hand and the Communist Party on the other. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:27, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Isaiah 25:6
According to the article "Lees (fermentation)", the King James version of the Bible translates a phrase in Isaiah 25:6 to "Wine on the lees". link, "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined." In the Norwegian translation of Bibelselskapet from 1994, no explicit reference is made to lees (På dette fjell skal Herren, Allhærs ud, gjøre et gjestebud for alle folk, et gjestebud med fete retter, et gjestebud med gammel vin, med fete, margfulle retter og gammel klaret vin.) My question is if there is anyone on the Language desk with access to the original version and knowledge of Hebrew, who would take the trouble of checking the translation, whether this actually refers to the winemaking technique of sur lie. Thank you. --NorwegianBluetalk 12:09, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The Hebrew word that the KJV translates "wines on the lees" is שְׁמָרִים sh'marim (see the full text at ). The NRSV translates it "well-matured wines". I don't know how much is known about the precise oenological meaning of sh'marim, though. —Angr (talk) 14:05, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --NorwegianBluetalk 14:14, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * My Bible of choice renders this phrase "a banquet of wine kept on the dregs... wine kept on the dregs, filtered." The NASB says "a banquet of aged wine... and refined, aged wine." Schyler  ( one language ) 14:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That last one seems closest to the Norwegian translation gammel vin since gammel means "old". —Angr (talk) 14:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, interesting. This page (the reliability of which I have no idea...) states that "The Hebrew word 'Sh-marim' refers to either dregs of wine or wine left for sometime on the dregs, presumably long enough to produce really potent intoxicants.". --NorwegianBluetalk 15:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, our article on the New World Translation is really awful, amazingly POV. Just look at the 'critical reception' section: it bears very little resemblance to the overall landscape of critical opinion. And the section on 'translators' doesn't even mention the issue of research which claims to have identified the 'anonymous' translators, revealing that most (4 out of 5) of them had little to no training in or knowledge of the languages they were 'translating'. I mean, I'm sure we should be wary of including those claims as fact, but to not even mention them? I may have to do some hunting down of reliable sources this week. 86.164.164.27 (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please
Hi there! I recently visited Greece, and when I wanted to order something at the bar the always said: "yes, please" (meaning: hi there, how can I help you?" I guess). Where do they get this expression from (I only know it in the sence of: "Would you like a beer? Yes, please!"). I'm really curious since I've never ever heard this expression. Sεrvιεи | T@lk page 14:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd think of it as short for "Yes, [may I take your order] please". In German it's normal to say "Ja bitte?" (Yes please?) to someone to let them know you're ready to take their order or otherwise ready to start listening to their request. Maybe they say something similar in Greek, which the people you met then translated literally into English. —Angr (talk) 15:05, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Was the question in English? Where are you from? The expression is common enough in Australia. (In English, of course.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * They say "s'il vous plait" when they're ready to take your order in France too. I can't say I've ever heard "please" in that context in English (in Canada). Adam Bishop (talk) 09:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be unusual to hear "yes, please" in this context in UK English.   D b f i r s   12:19, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Basil Fawlty would approach a customer he was not impressed with, or wanted to have as little to do with as possible, with "Yes"; sometimes "Yes, yes". Short, I guess, for "Yes, I've seen you, so what do you want?  I've got too much to do to be bothered with the likes of you so bloody well hurry up".  A far cry from "Yes, please".  See, the magic word "please" does make all the difference.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If the Brits are accustomed to "Yes, please?" then a simple "Yes?" would be recognized by Brits as being a sarcastic "Yes", a point which would be lost on American audiences. There are various ways to say "Yes" sarcastically. For example, this clip featuring Jack Benny and Frank Nelson. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:12, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (continuing on from Adam Bishop) I haven't heard that either; the closest might be "Yes, sir?" To my ears, "please" sounds inappropriate (though polite!) in that situation, though it does somewhat parallel the changes seen in "thanks"/"thank you" lately where that term has become a signal of polite ending to a conversation (we had a thread about that a year or two ago). To me, "please" is only appropriate when requesting a favour. Matt Deres (talk) 16:13, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's simply a contraction of "yes, could I have your order, please" (or something similar), and is not a modern innovation. I've heard it for at least the last fifty years in northern England and I think it is much older than that.  Perhaps it is less common in Canada and the USA.   D b f i r s   08:34, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * "Yes?" by itself would be very common in the US, especially at a store when a clerk behind the counter is ready for his next customer. I don't recall ever hearing a sales clerk start with "Yes, please?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * "Yes?" in such a setting could be considered quite rude in Australia. Although, it might go over OK if accompanied by a large smile, eye contact and obvious interest in the customer, rather than obvious disinterest.  But then, many Aussie shop assistants have a lot to learn.  "Are you right?" is unfortunately a far too common greeting.  I'm getting quite used to replying with "The customer is always right, but if you're asking whether I've been served yet or not, the answer is ".  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  07:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes? would sound a bit abrupt to me, too, in the States. But yes, please? would sound just odd.  More usual would be something like how can I help you?.  At a coffee shop, it would be what can I get you?. --Trovatore (talk) 10:07, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * For sure, a simple "Yes?" by a sales clerk should be "accompanied by a large smile, eye contact and obvious interest in the customer." Otherwise it could come across like Frank Nelson (see earlier cite) or like an implied, "Yeh, whaddya want?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Or the stereotypically supercilious and haughty British hotel desk clerk of the Richard Wattis variety, who is far too busy sorting through some terribly important cards or checking some terribly important details to be able to raise his gaze to meet the new customer standing in front of him. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  12:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As a Southerner now living in Northern England, I do find "Yes, please" a bit strange to my ear. But its a polite enough way of alerting a daydreaming customer (me) that the assistant is now free and waiting for me, sort of "Yes,(get on with it) please" Jameswilson (talk)

What does this Latin phrase mean?
A friend sent me this, what does it mean? Vita nihil aliud somnium. Sed pulchrum est somnium mihi. Lucet aestatem et caritas implet auras. Pure delectatio, potest negari .. Thanks. --Simplesnole (talk) 15:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You have an answer on Yahoo Answers. I notice it doesn't sound like actual Latin, and I can't find a source. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's trying to say "Life is nothing but a dream. But my dream is beautiful [or "The dream is beautiful to me"]. It lights up the summer and the love fills the air. Pure delight can [sic] be denied." It isn't terribly idiomatic Latin though; it sounds like it was translated into Latin. And I think the last sentence should probably say  non potest negari "cannot be denied". —Angr (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. A strange sentence, though; I wonder where he found it. --Simplesnole (talk) 16:09, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Two side of the same coin?
I was helping study for the SATs when I came across something that had me baffled. The question asked us to finish the sentence "Joy and sorrow __________ of the same coin." I believed the answer to be "Joy and sorrow are two sides of the same coin," but when we checked the answer (this was an online SAT practice test), the answer was "Joy and sorrow are two side of the same coin" and then it had this explanation (I wish I had it in front of me) as to why this was correct (I believe it said something about the fact that the sentence uses the word 'two'). Is that really the right sentence, "two SIDE of the same coin"? 69.207.146.64 (talk) 20:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have never heard that and I always use "two sides of the same coin". Google search results do have a few hits for "two side of the same coin", suggesting it is maybe used, although it's far fewer hits than "two sides". Essentially this same question has been discussed before at some other sites:, r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 20:48, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Never heard the singular version. HiLo48 (talk) 22:41, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Its a mispeling.μηδείς (talk) 00:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * :) :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Whether or not "Joy and sorrow are two side of the same coin" is the answer the test wanted, it is grammatically incorrect. The verb (are) and predicate nominative (sides) must be either both plural or both singular. Lexicografía (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly, and it would be extraordinary, to say the least, for the testers to be expecting the "two side" answer. That would guarantee a 100% failure rate, which could only reflect poorly on the "teachers".  They surely don't want such an outcome, ergo, it's a typo. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the word "two" necessitates the plural here, both in the verb and the noun. "Joy and sorrow is two side of the same coin" sounds absolutely ridiculous. Gabbe (talk) 10:08, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There are languages in which numbers, or in some cases small numbers, take a singular noun. English is not one, and never has been. The question is in error. --ColinFine (talk) 10:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the supposed answer is completely wrong, but there are constructions where a number can be followed by a singular noun in English, as in "a five-mile journey" or "He's six foot two". There are also expressions like "1000 head of cattle". Is there a technical term for these?  AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * "Five-mile journey" and "1000 head of cattle" are examples of measure words, not nouns, which is why they look like they're singular. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, then the expressions would be "five miles of journey" and "six feet of tall". See immediately below. μηδείς (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think they can also be treated as numeral classifiers, though (which is what I meant when I said "measure words"; sorry, I should have been more specific). Granted, English usually uses "of N" for measuring, but there are rare instances where it does not; "head of cattle" is a very frequently cited such instance, and for me at least "five-mile journey" seems rather similar. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 17:02, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I did understand you, and one could make the argument that were all trace of Old English lost they might eventually be reanalysed as numeral classifiers, but there actually is such a classifier, "length" for poles and planks and such. You can say take a length of pole and halve it, or you can say take three lengths of rope and compare them.  But note that in such construction it is the noun quantified which is in the genitive, not the measure.  In the terms five mile journey and ten foot pole the measure is in the genitive.  See the source below, it is rather definitive.μηδείς (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I cannot recall the source, but apparently such forms as "a five mile journey" and "a ten foot pole" are reflexes of the Old English genitive plural, (not the nominative plural) which did not end in ess or undergo vowel mutation. That is they represent "a journey of five miles" and a pole of ten feet". The nominative singular and plural forms of foot were fōt and fēt but the plural genitive (i.e., "of feet") was fōta with no final ess and no vowel change.  See Old English declension. μηδείς (talk) 16:24, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is a source:  The words mile and foot are genitive plurals, not singulars or numeral classifiers, in these expressions. μηδείς (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * A two foot drop
 * A six alarm fire
 * A four way tie
 * A seven day hike
 * A five night stay
 * A nine mile ride
 * A three hour tour
 * A ten dollar bill

μηδείς (talk) 22:16, 5 June 2011 (UTC)