Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 7

= June 7 =

Indonesian help
Hi! Do any of these terms have English equivalents? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 05:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * id:Transistor memori
 * Transistor memori is translated as memory transistor right in the article. It defines it as "data-saving and accessing technology on the atomic scale that works similar to a human brain". Sounds similar to a memory card, but more high tech. Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This site uses the term memory transistor. That may be the actual term. Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:05, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Armenian help
What is the Armenian text of... http://www.mtc.am/MyPicture/www/logo_arm.gif I need it in text so I can use it in an article Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 05:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The whole website (including that header) is translated into English here. --Viennese Waltz 14:27, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Whisper, are you looking for a translation, or are you looking for a digitized text version in Armenian Unicode characters? I started to try making the latter for you, but some of the letters are so stylized I can't tell which letters they are (my knowledge of the Armenian alphabet is rudimentary at best). —Angr (talk) 14:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I don't speak a word in Armenian, but using Google Translate and MS Word's "change case" option, I got the following result:
 * Հայաստանի Հանրապետության
 * ՏՐԱՆՍՊՈՐՏԻ ԵՒ ԿԱՊԻ ՆԱԽԱՐԱՐՈՒԹՅՈՒՆ
 * which translates as:
 * Republic of Armenia
 * MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATION
 * which means that the Armenian version of the banner includes two separate phrases with the latter in allcaps. If you want a single phrase, "The Ministry of Transport and Communication of the Republic of Armenia" without allcaps, then Google Translate renders it as:
 * Նախարարությունը տրանսպորտի եւ կապի նախարարություն Հայաստանի Հանրապետության
 * — Kpalion(talk) 17:12, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the second word on the second line is ԵՎ, not ԵՒ. The Romanization is Hayastani Hanrapetowt’yan / TRANSPORTI EW KAPI NAXARAROWT’YOWN. 85.178.82.199 (talk) 21:17, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I was looking for digitized text in Armenian
 * Thank you for your help!
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 21:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Spellings with 3 pronunciations
I know of several "Scrabble English" words that are spelt the same way but have two different pronuciations. EG READ as reed or red, BOW as arrow or front of ship, etc. Is there any word with 3 meanings and 3 different sounds? -- SGBailey (talk) 13:24, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm curious as well. The closest I can come involves proper nouns like Weber, which can variously be pronounced as WEEBER, WEBBER, and VAYBER (roughly), depending more or less on how German you are. Matt Deres (talk) 13:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Our article Heteronym (linguistics) gives the example sin/Sin, but it's a stretch, as I doubt that the Sumerian god's name is a "Scrabble word". Deor (talk) 15:09, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes - according to my chambers scrabble reference, the word AS has three allowed interpretations in Scrabble all of which are pronounced differently. As meaning "so", pronounced /æz/, As (Roman coin), pronounced /æs/, and the Norwegian loanword ås, meaning a gravel mountain ridge, pronounced /ɔːs/. - file lake  shoe  15:19, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Any chance of translating the pronunciation into something more understandable. The first as (so) rhymes with "has" in "he has the ball". Is the second one the tail end of "days"? Is the norwegian one more like the tail end of "bars"? -- SGBailey (talk) 16:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right about the first one. The second rhymes with bass (the fish); the third, with boss (in most AmE dialects). Deor (talk) 17:05, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep - boss in AmE or horse in BrE. - file lake  shoe  23:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Or sauce in both. 85.178.83.119 (talk) 05:32, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * ... did you mean source?   D b f i r s   07:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

9 letter English word
Is there any english (Scrabble English) word of 9 letters that if written in a 3*3 grid makes 3 valid words across and 3 valid words down? EG If WIKIPEDIA was such a word then WIK, IPE, DIA, WID, IEI IPI and KEA would all be proper words. -- SGBailey (talk) 13:27, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your penultimate word should be IPI, not IEI, but I don't have an answer to your question. —Angr (talk) 13:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried a brute force search on a (probably non-Scrabble-compliant) word list, and the nearest I got was with CHAPERONE, which gives CHA, PER, ONE, HEN and ARE, but fails on CPO.  AndrewWTaylor (talk)
 * It would work if you allow acronyms/initialisms: see CPO (Although if you allow TLAs, there are probably a large number of 9 letter words which would work.) -- 174.31.219.218 (talk) 15:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, this would be a variation of a word square. Our article discusses a few other varieties, but doesn't seem to mention this particular sort. Matt Deres (talk) 13:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, if you write the word snakewise (or boustrephodon), so the rows are letters 123/654/789, then CAMERAMEN gives CAM, ARE, MEN, CAM, ARE, MEN. The repetitions rather spoil it though.. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Why do it snakewise? The ordinary way it gives CAM, ERA, MEN, CAM, ARE, MAN -- which is better, only one repetition. Looie496 (talk) 23:10, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it gives the non-word CEM in the first column. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks anyway, even if no nice solution exists. -- SGBailey (talk) 16:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * AVE
 * RAG
 * ING


 * Comes close, and is not repetitive, but ARI is a name or an abbreviation, not a common noun. I cannot imagine that there is no solutionμηδείς (talk) 18:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

[irrelevant solution deleted by proposer] —— Shakescene (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

How about:
 * LAC ERA TED

81.159.110.189 (talk) 19:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

👍 μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And if LAC—ERA—TED → LET—ARE—CAD works, then MAC—ERA—TED → MET—ARE—CAD would also work, although LAC might have a slightly better claim to wordhood. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think "mac" is an OK word in BrE, where it is a common abbreviation of "mac(k)intosh", a type of waterproof coat. 86.181.201.14 (talk) 20:18, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, one that reads the same both across and down:
 * LAV ALA VAS
 * (just about!) 81.159.110.189 (talk) 20:19, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What's LAVALAVAS, or MACERATED, or METARECAD? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * lavalavas, macerated —Bkell (talk) 01:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, as I understand the puzzle, METARECAD does not have to be a word. 81.159.110.189 (talk) 02:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh I see, I misread the middle arrow. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

What does this edit summary mean? Language Unknown
I came across this edit summary, and would like to know what it means, and what language it is. N.b It is possibly Pashto or another language related to Afghanistan. pakhair raghlay wrora, ra kho ghlay dasay kho fikir na kawam say dair ba de praygdey.. doy pa dair asaney sara kawalay see say deta pa ara malomaat ra - 220.101 User talk:220.101.28.25\ 17:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It would be much easier to figure out if we knew what the page was and what the edit did. If you go to "View History" on the page in question and click "prev" on the left, it should show you what the edit was and also give you a URL ("diff") that you could paste here for our reference. —— Shakescene (talk) 17:34, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

It is apparently Pashto, search for "pakhair raghlay" at google. No idea what it means. Searching for the full phrase gets what looks like a mirror site. μηδείς (talk) 17:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeh. I tried that too! ;) - 220.101 User talk:220.101.28.25\ 18:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * But if you navigate (and translate) long enough from that mirror site, you can find the original message, which was the first one on User:Tofaan's talk page. The header "Salamoon" seems like a variant of Welcome or Greetings (Salaam, Shalom, etc.), and the text (since removed or else replaced by a standard English-language Welcome) might be no more than a simple welcome to Wikipedia. Of course it might have more content. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:07, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I was posting the but You beat me to it! - 220.101 User talk:220.101.28.25\ 18:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks like I might have to find a Pashto Speaker. Thanks for trying Guys/Gals! :) - 220.101 User talk:220.101.28.25\ 12:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Happy Birthday in German
Would some native or near-native German speakers please tell me some of the best and most common and natural expressions for wishing someone a Happy Birthday in German? The message will be written and not spoken, if that makes any difference, to a male German bf. Howie26 (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag! --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds a bit formal for someone addressing a boyfriend. I would go with something like "Zärtliche Wünsche zum Geburtstag!", or just "Geburtstagsgrüße an Dich!", but I am not a native speaker.  Marco polo (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, no, it's so standard that it doesn't sound formal at all – although I agree that based on the words used one would expect it to sound formal. "Zärtliche Wünsche" sounds odd. If you want something slightly non-standard, intimate and informal, maybe try something like "Viele liebe Geburtstagswünsche!" In general, I recommend [] for answering such questions (and for contributing). The quality of translations is pretty mixed though, and you can see that many of the original Japanese-English pairs were with which the project started were written by Japanese students with little understanding of English. Hans Adler 20:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I like "Viele liebe Geburtstagswünsche" very much. That seems to be just what I am looking for.  I appreciate the other three suggestions also!  Thank you, Howie26 (talk) 21:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Alles Gute zum Geburtstag sounds very natural and not too formal. 85.178.82.199 (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag" and "Alles Gute zum Geburtstag" are both standard, maybe a tiny little bit unimaginative if used for a very good friend.
 * I agree with Hans Adler when he writes: "Zärtliche Wünsche" sounds odd. If you want something slightly non-standard, intimate and informal, maybe try something like "Viele liebe Geburtstagswünsche!" A little less non-standard, but also slightly intimate, would be "Alles Liebe zum Geburtstag".
 * In any case, there is more intimacy in the German word "lieb" than in the English word "dear". In English, I think it is possible to address some Mr. Jack Miller writing "Dear Mr. Miller". In German - my mother tongue - I would not write "Lieber Herr Miller", I would write "Sehr geehrter Herr Miller". Only when I know that Jack Miller well enough to call him "Jack" and "Du", I might write "Lieber Jack". -- Irene1949 (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you refer to an inanimate entity as 'who'
"GDF8, is a secreted protein of the TGF-β family which expression has been confirmed in a range of vertebrates" or "GDF8, is a secreted protein of the TGF-β family whose expression has been confirmed in a range of vertebrates" or NEITHER

Can you refer to an inanimate entity as 'who'? --129.215.5.134 (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * An inanimate entity can not correctly be referred to by the pronoun who (except in personification), but the word whose can be used as a relative pronoun corresponding to the inanimate pronoun what. Please see http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whose.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 21:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

For plants, animals, and inanimate objects, one uses that for restrictive clauses

eg. "Video games that involve strategy are favorite ones.")

But he uses which for non-restrictive clauses

eg. "Pac Man, which is my favorite video game, involves a lot of strategy."——the commas are MANDATORY, by the way——)

For men, women, and children, though, one always uses who in the nominative—think "I, he, she, we, they"— or whom in the accusative or 'dative——think "me, him, her, us, them"—.

eg.

"People who love to jog are fitter than people who don't." [non restrictive]

"Brothers and Sisters, who share a common set of parents, are prone to have sons with birth defects if they intermarry." [restrictive]

The rule concerning genitive adjectives and pronouns (think "his, hers, its, ours, yours, theirs, mine") in the relative aspect in English is also crystal clear:

For men, women, and children, it's whose, and for plants, animals, and inanimate objects it's of which

For style's sake, however, one may occasionally "bend the rules" are substitute whose for of which.

eg. "It was an idea whose time had come."

Not even a pedant (such as I :) ) would write "It was an idea the time of which had come." Pine (talk) 00:54, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Different people have different opinions about the use of "whose" for inanimate things. Some people don't have a problem with it, while others dislike it. Unfortunately, avoiding "whose" in such cases can sometimes make for tortured sentences or lengthy circumlocutions. Incidentally, the use of "which" in the first sentence ("GDF8, is a secreted protein of the TGF-β family which expression has been confirmed in a range of vertebrates") is incorrect, and both sentences are incorrectly punctuated (no comma is needed after "GDF8"). 81.159.110.189 (talk) 01:05, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But a comma is required between "family" and "which". --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  06:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Even a comma after family doesn't change the fact that the genitive of which isn't which, it's whose. And I don't consider that "bending the rules". Whose comes from Old English hwæs, which is the genitive of both the animate hwā and the inanimate hwæt. Just because his lost its function as an inanimate pronoun (being replaced by the neologism its during the 17th century), that doesn't mean whose lost it too (no neologism *whats was created at the same time as its). —Angr (talk) 09:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've occasionally seen the cringeworthy "that's" (with apostrophe) used where "impersonal 'whose'" would normally be expected. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it occurred to me later that "which" would be correct if the protein is the expression, but that seems an unlikely interpretation. 86.160.219.84 (talk) 11:50, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The word whose (OE hwæs) is the genitive case of both who (OE hwā) and what (OE hwæt) and "of which" is an unnecessary complication. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_pronouns#Interrogative_pronouns for the definitive explanation.

μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant literary digression
Reading this reminded me (though fuzzily) of the lines in e.e. cummings' poem "THANKSGIVING 1956" about the Hungarian uprising against Soviet-supported Communist rule, which begins: a monstering horror swallows this unworld me by you as the god of our fathers' fathers bows to a which that walks like a who

—— Shakescene (talk) 05:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)