Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 March 18

= March 18 =

Conjugations of "to souvenir" [?]
Greetings!

The other day, I couldn't help but notice that many people are now using souvenir as a verb, instead of a noun as was traditional (in English, at least). I'm curious, however, as to whether one would write the past tenses—and present participle—with a double-consonant.

Since souvenir has a stress on the last syllable, the rule states that it would conjugate as follows:

But practically every usage I've seen of to souvenir treats the verb as if it weren't stressed on the last syllable. (Mind you, this is by no means unique—one also treats to bayonet, to catalog, and to chagrin likewise.)

My question is simple: Which of these two would you consider proper? Pine (talk) 00:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The doubling is partly different between British and American spelling (not based solely on stress) -- e.g. "worship(p)ed", "travel(l)ing" etc. A specific problem with "souvenirred"[sic] is that it looks like it should rhyme with "stirred"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * As someone who has never heard the word used as a verb, I'm intrigued. What do these users mean by doing so? Looking for souvenirs; collecting souvenirs; repurposing objects as souvenirs; making souvenirs; something else? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.165 (talk) 00:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not seeing it in use as a verb. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC with below) Me neither, except for one possible dictionary definition, which says as a verb it is Australian slang for 'steal' which is what got them all over there in the first place :) --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The online edition of the OED doesn't seem to be available on my library's website just at the moment, but the 2nd edition (1989) lists the verb souvenir with three different meanings, viz:
 * 1. "To pierce with a bullet or shell...Mil[itary] slang (in the war of 1914-18)", with a single citation from 1915.
 * 2. "To provide with or constitute a souvenir of (something). rare", with citations from 1917 on.
 * 3. To take as a 'souvenir'; to appropriate; to pilfer, steal. Also absol[ute].  slang (orig[inally] Mil[itary])", with citations from 1919 on.
 * It also lists the verbal noun souveniring with a single -r-. The verb doesn't take a double -rr- in any of the OED's citations of the present participle, past participle etc.  --Antiquary (talk) 20:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, it's very common in Australia to say you're "souveniring" something when what you really mean is "stealing" something that just happens to have been left lying around. Or even in its correct place, but not currently protected by armed guards or CCTV. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah! In my ideolect that would be "'arf-inchin'" :-) . {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.165 (talk) 04:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "Liberating" is what I call it (or "scrumping", but that should really be just apples). DuncanHill (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Possibly the classic example of the Australian use of the term is a visiting sports team on the way back home, "souveniring" a road sign with the name of the town they'd visited. (Because of the infrequency of regattas and the long distances they travel to get to them, Rowing clubs are notorious for this.) --Shirt58 (talk) 07:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't recall ever seeing it used as a verb, but my instinctive feeling is that the two r's look wrong. (BrE speaker.) 86.177.106.14 (talk) 01:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never heard or seen this verb in the U.S. or Canada, but now I have a vivid image of an Australian tourist in Québec souveniring auto license plates.
 * I have always believed that the correct verb is "to swag" ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 09:19, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong..." So the guy was a thief?
 * Yes that's the point. Tramp visits billabong (a spring), catches sheep and conceals in sack until interrupted by squatter (rancher) and 3 troopers, then drowns himself to avoid capture; ghost continues with annoying song. Hopefully Jack will correct any mistranslations. Alansplodge (talk) 20:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, you did ask. :) A billabong is not a spring but as described at billabong. "Swag" is never used as a verb in Australia, always a noun; it's discussed at Swag (bedroll) and Swagman.  The jolly swagman was a sheep stealer, but the "swag" there does not refer to his theft, but the bedding he carried on his back when trudging to his next job.  (Btw, I don't think any Australian ever uses the words "jolly" or "merry" except in fixed expressions like "jolly swagman" or "Merry Christmas".  Otherwise, they're considered incredibly naff words.  Apologies to anyone named Jolly/Jolley.)
 * Now, as for this "annoying song" claim: you're entitled to your opinion. But "Waltzing Matilda" was one of the options when the question of Australia's National Anthem was last put to a popular vote, in 1977.  It came second to Advance Australa Fair, but it still got close to twice as many votes as the third-place getter, the then existing anthem God Save the Queen.  Even if the majority felt it was inappropriate for a national anthem, "we rather like it here" is probably the understatement of the century, and it has the status of an unofficial National Song, very much akin to Land of Hope and Glory in the UK.  Which we also like here too.  Well, I do, anyway. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected on several points Jack, thank you. I don't know why I know all the words and can't remember learning them but there you are. "Swag" as a verb is used by UK rock climbers - it means to acquire equipment by the law of finders-keepers (rather like 'to souvenir' really). "Where did you get that?" "Oh, I swagged it at Froggy" is a typical climbers' conversation. I had always thought it was of Australian origin. Now I know better. Alansplodge (talk) 00:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Let that be a lesson to you. Go in peace and sin no more.  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  04:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Alansplodge -- The OED lists "swag" (noun) as 19th-century British slang for "plunder" or stolen property... AnonMoos (talk) 06:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you AnonMoos. Alansplodge (talk) 08:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a Rolf Harris version of Waltzing Matilda where he stops to explain each line. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course - silly me. Also I'd forgotten about all those cartoons showing a burglar with a stripey jumper and a sack with "swag" written on it. Alansplodge (talk) 08:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

So, in summary:

to souvenir seems one of six stressed verbs that would not inflect with a double-consonant. (The other five are to bayonet, to catalog, to chagrin, to kayak, and to parallel.)

Australians, let us all rejoice! Pine (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Japanese nuclear accident vehicle
Is there an English article corresponding to this? If yes, maybe someone can make appropriate interwikis; if not, it might be interesting to translate the article. I don't read Japanese but from context I gather it is a Japanese military vehicle meant to deal with nuclear fallout (e.g. from a nuclear attack) and was used in some reactor cleanup in the 1990's. Thanks. 75.57.242.120 (talk) 07:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a chemical protection vehicle, similar to the M1135 Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, Reconnaissance Vehicle (NBCRV) (and this second type of vehicle is NBC偵察車 in Japanese (page here)). The article you linked to suggests that the vehicle you point out only has chemical protection capability, but has been combined since 2010 with the biological protection vehicle (page here) to give rise to the current NBCRV capabilities of the JSDF. The article does not mention the earthquake and subsequent problems we are having with the nuclear facilities in Fukushima (there is a note at the top, however, saying that it's an ongoing story which may change and so anything added to the article may subsequently be edited), nor any other reactor cleanup it may have been involved in, but it does mention that it was deployed during the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:44, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It appears to be a Type 82 Command and Communication Vehicle; a webpage that WP won't let me link to says; "An NBC reconnaissance version of the Type 82 command and communications vehicle is now in service. This has devices mounted at the rear for the collection of samples which can then be analysed." This vehicle is mentioned in our Japan Ground Self-Defense Force article under "Current equipment" but has a red link. If anyone out there is bored they could take up the torch. Alansplodge (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I do remember seeing someplace that it was used in an actual nuclear cleanup in 1995 or so. 75.57.242.120 (talk) 05:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Drag and burn
What does the term "drag and burn" mean ? Are there any terms which are on similar lines to the term "drag and burn" aniketnik 10:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketnik (talk • contribs)


 * It refers to a feature in a CD/DVD/BD burning software where the user can simply drag the files intended for the target disc into a folder and burn them with the click of a button. The term is used to suggest simplicity and ease of use. I think it is safe to assume that this is now pretty much universal. --DI (talk) 10:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Juncture
"At that juncture in time" or "At that juncture of time" which is the right way to use in a sentence? Also Juncture and junction meaning the same aniketnik 13:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketnik (talk • contribs)


 * When "at this juncture" is used, the fact that the speaker means a moment in time is already understood. There is no need to specify a juncture in time/process rather than space/construction. "At that juncture" doesn't sound necessarily wrong to me, but it's rarely used, if ever.  ☯.Zen  Swashbuckler  .☠  14:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't be prudent...not at this juncture. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I would say "at that juncture in time". Yes, you could omit "in time", but, since juncture could possibly mean some other type of juncture, it's not wrong to leave it in.  As for junction, while it technically means about the same thing, it's not normally used in that expression. StuRat (talk) 18:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Both "at this juncture" and "at that juncture" sound fine to me. To express a preference between them, one would need to see the whole context. If you want to mention time (which you don't need to), then "... in time" sounds better to me. 86.181.169.37 (talk) 18:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)