Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 May 17

= May 17 =

Referenced in
Is "he is referenced in school textbooks" good standard American English? It sounds poor to my Br. Eng. ears. I would say "referred to in school textbooks" or, better "mentioned in school textbooks". The meaning should be "mentioned", not "used as a source". This is for a biography of an American, so I want it to sound right in US English. Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * To me (also British) "Einstein is referenced in school textbooks" means that works he authored are used as references. "Einstein is referred to in school textbooks" means that the books mentioned Einstein". I think this is what Itsmejudith is saying too. Are we saying that the meaning is different in American English? -- Q Chris (talk) 10:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I was wondering whether it is good American English for the meaning "he is mentioned in school textbooks". I think we have some American copywriters around who would know. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The New York Times Manual of Style (1999 ed.) states "reference is business jargon when used as a verb. More natural substitutes include cite, mention, and refer to." Unfortunately, I don't seem to have access to a more recent style guide that discusses the word.  My non-expert guess would be that in the 12 years since the NYT guide I quoted was published the use being questioned above has crept into common enough use that it's more or less acceptable.  As someone with what I would consider a fairly strong grasp of American English, I have to say the word as used above strikes me as not really right and not the best choice, but only because it was pointed out to me.  If I encountered it in a piece of writing or everyday speech, it probably wouldn't set off any alarms.   --some jerk on the Internet    (talk)  12:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much, so "mentioned" is slightly better but it isn't a big deal. Will leave it till the article is proofread, then. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm also an American English speaker, and I would interpret it exactly the same way as Q Chris. "He is referenced in school textbooks" means his works are listed as references; it's not the same as "He is referred to in school textbooks". —Angr (talk) 21:01, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed (by another US English speaker). StuRat (talk) 09:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I would see it as depending upon context. Using "referenced in" as a substitute for "referred to in" might be to avoid that "dangling to". "Mentioned in" or "discussed in" would seem to be clearer alternatives. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't know about good American English, but it's very common in Wikipaedia English. That's not a good reason to use it! 90.214.166.169 (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Hellenic State
I would like to find the official German and Italian translations of the name of the Hellenic State. As far as I know, these names should exist, considering that it was a puppet government of both Germany and Italy. I'd like also to know the official Japanese transcription (if it actually existed) of the various names of its former puppet states: in the Mengjiang article, only the Chinese romanization of 蒙疆聯合自治政府 is given (Měngjiāng Liánhé Zìzhì Zhèngfǔ). In the Reorganized National Government of China article, 中華民國, along with a lot of other alternative names, is romanized only as Zhōnghuá Mínguó. Just another question: what's the (official) German translation of Mengjiang United Autonomous Government? Thanks --151.41.226.47 (talk) 11:51, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Mengjiang is 蒙古聯合自治政府 in ja and the Hepburn romanization is Mōko rengō jichi-seifu. Reorganized National Government of China is 汪兆銘政権/Ōchōmei seiken or 南京国民政府/Nankin kokumin-seifu or 中華民国南京国民政府/Chūkaminkoku Nankin kokumin-seifu. Oda Mari (talk) 14:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * After searching in vain for possible German and Italian translations of "Greek State" or "Hellenic State", I'm wondering if that was ever truly an official name for anything. Even in English there aren't really any references for "Hellenic State" referring to the Axis government. Is this one of those things that was just made up for Wikipedia? Adam Bishop (talk) 15:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The WP article seems to suggest the official name in Greek was Ελληνική Πολιτεία. As a puppet government it probably didn't have an official name in German, so would just be translated somehow, like how the WP article says it can be translated as either Hellenic State or Greek State into English. Not being able to see the references really doesn't help, it might well be an invented term. -  file lake  shoe  16:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The name Ελληνική Πολιτεία was used in official documents in the occupation period; see here for example. The name "Griechischer Staat" may not have been commonly used as a long form at the time in German. The Gothaisches Jahrbuch für Diplomatie, Verwaltung und Wirtschaft (1943) often shows long-form names for the countries it lists, but Greece is called "Griechenland (Helliniki Politia)." In the article it refers to the "Umwandlung des Königreichs in einen 'Griechischen Staat' (Helliniki Politia) 7. Mai 1941" (conversion of the kingdom into a "Greek State" on May 7, 1941). Note the quotes around the name.--Cam (talk) 03:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Reflection
This is the third time that "Louie496" has deleted one of my posts. Please stop!92.15.1.9 (talk) 14:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC) Is there another word I can use instead of "reflection" in the sense of thinking about one's actions with a view to improving them next time? An essential part of professionalism, but the word is easily misunderstood to refer to mirrors etc. 15:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.245.12 (talk)


 * Can't think of one off the top of my head, but if you say "self-reflection" then that rules the mirror ambiguity out. - file lake  shoe  15:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * "Self-critique" would be clearer; other options are "self-assessment" or "self-appraisal". Or if you want to be clever you could call it a post-mortem. Looie496 (talk) 16:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Or "self-correction" or "self-improvement" ? StuRat (talk) 16:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Gibbs Reflective Cycle is a pretty standard model for reflective practice in nursing and teaching. (Why don't we have an article on this? I know - write it yourself! How much of the linked article can I get away with nicking?) --TammyMoet (talk) 18:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Introspection? Contemplation? Meditation?  Kingsfold  (Quack quack!)  13:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)