Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 May 4

= May 4 =

How best to learn Mandarin
Now it's my turn to ask for help. It's been a while since I undertook to learn a (somewhat) new language, and I know that there are now many online language-learning resources. I want to learn Mandarin. I say it's somewhat new, because I took one year of Mandarin in college 30 years ago. Oddly enough, I remember much of what I learned, which was however only the basics. Because I have some grounding in the pronunciation, basic grammar, and basic vocabulary, and because I am a fast learner of languages, I'd like a whirlwind refresher course. Then I'd like to build on my foundation at a fairly rapid pace. I've found in the past that language classes frustrate me, because my classmates need much more time to learn material than I do. On the other hand, I assume that individual instruction might be prohibitively expensive. (Though maybe not.) Can anyone recommend language-learning environments, schools, or whatever, that might meet my needs? Thanks! Marco polo (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be useful to know where you are - I presume you are not in China, Taiwan, Singapore or Hong Kong, anywhere where Mandarin speakers might be (relatively) plentiful? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The user page User:Marco polo says "I live in Boston in the United States". Pais (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are of course some Mandarin speakers around, but Mandarin is not used much here outside of the homes of immigrants and a few restaurant kitchens. However, I have come up with a plan. I have had good luck with Pimsleur courses before, so I think I am going to do all 3 Pimsleur Mandarin courses.  Meanwhile, I think I will purchase a Chinese character flashcard app for my iPhone so that I can learn characters on my daily train commute.  I am motivated enough to go to Chinese websites once I have learned 1,000 or so characters so that I can learn to read texts.  Once I have exhausted those resources, I think the next step might be to hire a tutor to help me with conversation and listening comprehension.  (I've found that credentialed Mandarin tutors are available in Boston for $30 an hour, which I could probably afford for a limited number of lessons.) Beyond that, there are no doubt online radio stations I could listen to.  I could also take an intermediate or advanced course from time to time to refresh speaking and writing skills.  Let me know if you see any pitfalls in this plan.  Marco polo (talk) 15:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Those sound like good plans. If you have access to a library where you can borrow Chinese books and periodicals cheaply for free, I would recommend that in addition to or perhaps even in preference to reading on the internet, simply because the quality of prose will be better and thus it will be a better way to pick up "proper" written Chinese.
 * In Australia, community language schools are subsidised by the government and so offers language lessons at an affordable price; I'm not sure whether similar things would exist in your area. Another way to get language "lessons" cheaply I've seen is to enter into a barter arrangement with a Chinese speaker who is keen to improve their English - by learning simultaneously from each other you can both improve your proficiency in each other's language without spending a great deal of money. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Your suggestion of library books is a good one. I know that the Boston Public Library has a substantial Chinese-language collection.  Language exchange is also not a bad idea once I develop some proficiency.  I tried it once at my present ability level and found that we only spoke English because I could say so little in Mandarin.  Thanks.  Marco polo (talk) 17:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * See http://www.mangolanguages.com/. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * You could try the FSI Mandarin course, which is now available free on the web. Health warning: it's old skool in the extreme, relying on repetition of mind-numbingly dull material ad nauseam to get things into your head; it could seriously damage your will to live, never mind learn Chinese.   If you can bear it though, it is very effective. HenryFlower 18:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Which reminds me of Rosetta Stone (software) as something that definitely doesn't have this problem. It's the only language learning software I know that really does its job well. (Unless you come with the expectation of an old-fashioned course and are unable to learn new languages in basically the same way that you acquired your first.) Learning with it feels much like playing a computer game, and it's the only language learning software I ever tried that consistently gets microphones and speech recognition to work flawlessly. The only problem is the absolutely prohibitive price. (I have not tried it with Mandarin, but I would be surprised if it had a quality problem for that language.) Hans Adler 18:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Absolutely prohibitive price" - doesn't that mean that nobody, not even Bill Gates, can afford it? Just how expensive is it?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's moot. I am not a fan of Rosetta Stone because I don't think it is good at developing conversational ability or a good grasp of grammar.  The price of the Rosetta Stone program is only slightly higher than that of Pimsleur, but based on a number of reviews online, it seems that the Pimsleur program gets you much further for the same price.  Mango looks interesting, but my understanding is that the three Mango modules are roughly the equivalent of one Pimsleur course. (And Pimsleur offers three courses.)  I will stick with the tried and true Pimsleur.  It worked really well for me the last time I learned a language.  Thanks to all for your suggestions!  Marco polo (talk) 20:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fluenz has a Mandarin program, but if you don't like Rosetta Stone you probably won;t like Fluenz either. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In terms of getting a tutor, another option might be to make contact with a recent immigrant and offer a quid pro quo of English lessons in exchange for Mandarin lessons. There'd be no fee and you'd be helping someone who could really use the assistance. When I volunteered as an ESL tutor, the students were often quite happy to teach a few points about their home language. They might not be able to help with the technical aspects, but as native speakers they would be great at helping you with the finer points of "real world" conversation. Most urban areas have some kind of center for new immigrants to touch base with and they often link up tutors and students. Matt Deres (talk) 18:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew
How do I pronounce and translate this Hebrew phrase:



Thanks Wikipedians! Schyler ( one language ) 02:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * According to which Hebrew phonology do you want the pronunciation?
 * —Wavelength (talk) 02:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Would both be too much trouble? Schyler  ( one language ) 03:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Quick and dirty transcription (without paying too much attention to phonological details): [ʕimmax yihye waʔadonay lex]. AnonMoos (talk) 03:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I could tell you the range of meanings of each individual word, but it's hard to come up with an overall translation without knowing something about the context. If it's a particular Bible verse or known literary passage, then you could look up a translation of it... AnonMoos (talk) 03:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

As a speaker of modern Hebrew, I would translate literally as "with you he will be, and YHWH for you". The text probably has commentary somewhere, something like "God is with you and for you" ("for you" in the sense that he is on your side). --Sreifa (talk) 10:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Erm, guys, I'm pretty sure that Schyler has pasted the words in from left to right, instead of right to left, so your transliteration is in reverse and your translation is wonky. Schyler, if you read AnonMoos' transliteration in reverse (the words, not letter by letter) you'll be OK. Translated, it'd be "Go, and God be with you". --Dweller (talk) 11:09, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * If you reverse the order of the words then the translation task immediately becomes much easier! [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] (In particular, [ʕimmax] is a feminine form except at the end of clauses, where it can be a special "pausal" masculine form, while [lex] is masculine...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 11:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Is this what you meant, schyler? --Sreifa (talk) 11:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * A couple things. Sorry I forgot to link the verse. I was looking for a more "literal" translation. Yes, it is 1 Samuel 17:37. Too bad the image was already deleted. Also, the funny characters in AnonMoos translation throw me off. Wut is thuh lay-manz tranz-krip-chuhn? Thanks. Schyler  ( one language ) 13:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "im-MAKH yi-YEH va-a-doh-NIE lekh". Except now we know it's the other way around: "lekh" (last word of previous clause) followed by "va-a-doh-NIE yi-YEH im-MAKH". "Kh" as in ch utzpah. Pais (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Schyler -- It's in IPA notation. [ʕ] is a voiced Pharyngeal sound, while [ʔ] is a glottal stop. These sounds really don't have any English dictionary pronunciation-guide type "layman's transcription". [x] is the velar fricative, as in Scottish or German loch.    AnonMoos (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Great. Thank y'all for the help. Schyler ( one language ) 20:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)