Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 November 13

= November 13 =

When to skip "the"
From Vrije Universiteit "Most Dutch students receive a grant or loan from the government to cover tuition and living expenses." Could or should the be left out in this sentence? I can't find the rules for doing so. Thanks. Joepnl (talk) 19:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No. It would be ungrammatical to omit the the from that sentence. Angr (talk) 20:04, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Angr. You cannot omit "the" here. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But you can in "The teacher told me to stop running around"? What's the difference? Joepnl (talk) 20:09, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't omit that the either myself, but I think some people treat "Teacher" as a quasi-name, like "Mother" and "Father". No one (as far as I know) treats "Government" as a quasi-name. Angr (talk) 20:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks both. I thought there was some rule like "if it's obvious which government, you can ommit the" but apparantly there isn't. Joepnl (talk) 20:26, 13 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Saying "Teacher told me to stop running around" sounds cutesy and childish (like a rather old-fashioned child), because it is treating the word "teacher" as the name of the teacher. In a classroom where the children call "Teacher! Teacher!" to get attention, this makes sense. In a modern British school, the children will generally call "Miss! Miss!" or "Sir! Sir!" if they don't use the teacher's name. So these children might say "Sir told me to stop running around" or "Miss told me to stop running around". I concede that it is likely that children in some jurisdictions still address their teachers as Teacher, but that sounds oddly Beano to British ears.


 * All of this is to say that the sentence "Teacher told me to stop running around" is only correct if you are addressing the teacher by the word teacher as if it is their name. Even then, using it in the sentence without the sounds cutesy and childish, just as saying "Doctor said to take this pill": titles usually keep the in this context, even if they drop it when addressing the person, although as titles become more name-like ("Mother", "Father") this changes.


 * You do not call the government "Government" as if it is their name, so you always keep "the". As a foreign speaker, you'd be wise not to drop it from your second sentence, either. 86.163.1.168 (talk) 20:29, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I promise never to drop the "the". But still I wonder why this search has so many hits. Are they all grammatically wrong? Joepnl (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, one result for example contains "...receive grants from government and private foundations..." - in this example "government" is part of a compound noun, "government foundations", so this is grammatically correct. - file lake  shoe  20:44, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Other results are clearly written in headlinese, where articles are routinely dropped. But others probably really are ungrammatical. Angr (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec)And sometimes "government" can be used as a mass noun, where there are many different jurisdictions operating overlappedly ("This issue is something I'm going to have to take to government for consideration"). But when referring to one specific government, it has to be "the government".
 * It's sometimes not as simple as whether the word is being used as a title or not. When talking to a Westminster-style Minister of the Crown, one addresses them as "Minister" (see Yes Minister).  But when talking about them, it's still "the Minister" ("The Minister is displeased with this state of affairs").  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:53, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it could be a mass noun, why not? Dutch students can receive plaudits from society and injuries from cutlery, so why shouldn't they receive grants from government? Why force them to specify which government? Card Zero  (talk) 22:45, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, this use of "government" without the article the seems to this native-born speaker of American English to be much more British than anything we'd say over here on the western shore of the Atlantic.—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 21:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * British English does seem to omit "the" a lot. 80.122.178.68 (talk) 09:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that AmEng (= InternationalEng) has caught up. "German novelist Hugo Fuchs announced today he will be a candidate for the next election for Chancellor" - that reads to me as if his title is "German novelist" cf. "President Barack Obama".  I would still prefer to read or be told about "the German novelist Hugo Fuchs", but this battle seems well and truly lost, at least in print.  We don't speak naturally in this article-free way.  Well, I don't.  I could be wrong but I suspect it grew out of the American thing about using titles like "Fire Chief Smith" and "Coach Brown", so "German novelist Hugo Fuchs" is just one step removed from that.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  10:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Does Time (magazine) still capitalize all occupations as if they were titles? —Tamfang (talk) 06:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

To my ears, which are trained by British English, "Most Dutch students receive a grant or loan from government to cover tuition and living expenses" sounds like a perfectly fine variant, although it sounds slightly better with the definite article. I suspect that the categorical statements above that it's incorrect are all from speakers of American English. Is that correct? A Google search for "from government" reveals many relevant hits from Commonwealth countries among the top ones, and only irrelevant hits from the US. Hans Adler 10:10, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the "from government" version is fine, as is the one with "the". The connotations are slightly different - one refers to a specific government (and the reader is supposed to know which government), the other to generic government as an institution. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Stephan. That is generally the usage in Singapore, a Commonwealth country. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 11:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In future, unless you're in hospital, don't get a loan from government! Work your way through college, Dutch, like we do here in America!  --  Kenatipo    speak! 15:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In American English, the use of government as a noun without an article is mainly confined to members of the Republican Party who use the article-less form (often pronounced "guv mint") as a way to express their loathing for non-military government action. To American ears, government without an article has a tone of contempt or distaste. Of course, if someone uttered an article-less government with a non-American accent, we'd assume either that the person had an inadequate command of the language, or, if a British or Antipodean accent, that's just the funny way they speak over there. In non-partisan American English, the government would refer to a specific government.  However, if an American speaker/writer wanted to refer to any or all governments, the normal expression would be a government.  Marco polo (talk) 15:54, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No Marco, that has little to do with the use or lack of an article. The difference is between the use of the word "government" to refer to an abstract concept, or the use of the word "government" to refer to a specific body.  With the former, you omit the article, with the latter you include it.  It is not unlike the difference between these two sentences:
 * "Milk is my favorite drink"
 * "The milk was rancid"
 * One may easily say:
 * "Government is the problem" or
 * "The government is the problem"
 * The two sentences have different meanings. The first implies that the very concept of government is the source of the problem; that is all governments (and no specific one) is a problem.  The second implies that the speaker has a specific government in mind.  That doesn't mean that Republicans don't use the first sense in a propagandistic way (that is, they espouse that all government is a problem, when they may just mean that THIS government is a problem), however the actual use or non-use of the article doesn't naturally carry any emotional weight per se.  -- Jayron  32  18:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Kenatipo, funny, "unless you're in hospital": in Dutch even this needs "The" when no particular hospital is implied ("A" would be more logical). I do agree with you b.t.w. (and I did work in college). Joepnl (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Joep, to answer your original question: I think it's correct either way.  (Americans are a lot more used to seeing it with the "the".)  (PS:  I worked and had a loan).  --  Kenatipo    speak! 21:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In summary (though this is probably a bit late): English does not use definite articles before plural nouns, uncountable nouns, or abstract concepts - unless referring to a previously established special quantity. "I like dogs" means that any dog, Dachshund or Collie, could come to you and you would like it. "I like the dogs" means that there is a certain group of dogs nearby and you like them, but other dogs are open to interpretation. "I would prefer red" means that you want the colour red on something; "I would prefer the red" means that there is a version of something that is already coloured red and you want the object, not the colour. Be aware that English does not use articles before geographical names, with two exceptions (because there are always exceptions). If the article is part of the place name, such as The Hague, then it is kept. The other exception is oceans and rivers, which always use articles - you cannot ask, "How deep is Atlantic Ocean?". However, lakes still do not use articles, unless the "the" is part of the lake's name. I hope that clears everything for you. Inter  change  able | talk to me  18:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On geographical names it's surely a touch more complicated than that though? You'd never say you live in United Kingdom, or in Netherlands, or in United States.  And there's also the optional definite articles for countries such as the Lebanon, the Ukraine and the Congo.  (I just notice that we have an article section about it). Pfainuk talk 22:44, 19 November 2011 (UTC)