Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 November 20

= November 20 =

Pronunciation of 了 in Chinese song
Is there any particular reason why 了 is pronounced as liao when sung (e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhFbXVn1SUs)? Is this an affectation, referencing a historical usage for older melodies? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.5.224 (talk) 10:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In songs, 了 is usually pronounced 'liao'. Also, 的 is usually pronounced 'di'. It was explained to me that it just sounds clearer than 'le' and 'de'.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  18:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * First, it is important to note that both of thsee are usual pronunciations of these two characters when used in particular sense: e.g. "了" when used to mean "accomplished, done, completed, finished", is pronounced "liao", and "的" when used to mean "target, goal" is pronounced "di".
 * As I understand it, the reason (some) modern singers use "liao" and "di" is part traditional and part practical. "Le" and "de" are both "short" sounds, and it is more difficult to sing these out loud without distorting the usual sounds. "Liao" and "di" do not have the same issue. This may be the reason why the two characters are always read as "liao" and "di" in Peking opera - which is why traditionally these characters are sung like this even in modern music. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * They're not always pronounced liao and di in song; many singers don't do that. In this particular instance, they were pronounced like that in the classic song by Teresa Teng, which Faye Wong is doing a cover of (I imagine Teng's was also a cover, although I don't know what it sounded like before that). In some dialects of Mandarin 了 and 的 are pronounced like that even in regular speech (in the senses where they are pronounced le and de in standard Mandarin). So I don't know if the pronunciation in this particular song is because of singing or because of Teng's dialect (she was Taiwanese and so her Mandarin would have differed slightly from standard mainland Mandarin, although I haven't heard what she sounds like when just speaking; also, in all of her songs that I know of she always pronounces these liao and di). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Capitalization of hyphenated proper nouns
This is somewhat cross-posted from the Humanities reference desk. The question is how to properly capitalize "Three-Fifths Compromise". I think everyone's in agreement that it's a proper noun. Here are some possible options: Most books use either 1 or 2. I am inclined to think 1 is correct, however a quick look at google reveals there's no consistency among scholarly works. So, what grammatical rules would apply here? Shadowjams (talk) 21:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Three-Fifths Compromise
 * 2) Three-fifths Compromise
 * 3) three-fifths compromise
 * 4) Three-Fifths compromise
 * 5) three fifths compromise
 * No "grammatical rules" apply; this is merely a matter of typographic style. (Of the two U.S. style guides closest to my hand, Words into Type would recommend capped Fifths, and The Chicago Manual of Style would recommend lowercase fifths.) Although this isn't a composition title, the penultimate subsidiary bulleted entry at MOS:CT indicates that "Three-Fifths Compromise" is probably the preferred form here. Deor (talk) 22:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)