Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 November 3

= November 3 =

Northern Irish words
I just came across this expression used by an elderly Northern Irish woman. In an interview with a journalist she described loyalist leader Billy Hanna as the "head buck cat" of a local soup kitchen that he was running in Lurgan during the 1974 Ulster Workers' Council strike. I am curious as to the origin of "buck cat". I take it to be a variation of tomcat. Is it a general Northern Irish expression or local Lurgan slang? Would any Northern Irish editors be able to shed any light on this? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't find any definition in the various free online dictionaries, but I did find the term used in an old (1896) book on Google Books, which described someone as a "Buck Cat" and seems to be using the term to mean something similar to "top dog"; i.e. leader, see page 83 in this book. The term appears to be being used by a foundry worker from St. Louis, Missouri.  -- Jayron  32  14:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes perfect sense, seeing as Hanna was the Mid-Ulster UVF leader as well as the main man running the UVF soup kitchen. Thanks a million, Jayron. It goes to show the influence the Scots-Irish immigrants had on US speech and slang. My southern-born mother who was of partial Northern Irish ancestry often used words and expressions that originated in Northern Ireland.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

"Never end a sentence with a preposition"
I've just witnessed someone on a language learning website advise a learner of English to "never end a sentence with a preposition". I'm seeking someone who is actually of the belief that this is a rule, I'm sure there must be someone on here. The sentence in question was "I found some shoes to try on", with the phrasal verb "try on". This sets your alarm off because it has "on" at the end, so would you say this otherwise? "I found some shoes on which I shall try"? "Is it christmas forward to which your children are looking?" Did you actually have to write like this in 1970s grammar school or did they encourage you to rephrase these check-mates in some other way? - file lake  shoe  09:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If I felt the need to rewrite those sentences, I'd go with "I found some shoes to try" and "Are you children looking forward to Christmas or some other event ?". StuRat (talk) 05:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It was always kind of a stupid rule, but some people believed in it (more for writing than for spoken language, though...). -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Per Common English usage misconceptions, "It is a myth that it is incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition." See the article and supporting sources. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 09:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That's an excellent article that everyone should read. The problem with a preposition at the end arises only in cases where it is completely unnecessary:  e.g., colloquial expressions such as "Where did she go to?" or "Where are you at?"  Other times, it's quite all right and even unavoidable:  "The teacher knew what the students were up to."  "After the party, all the booze was put away."  English has many phrasal verbs in which the preposition is actually part of the verb, and so cannot be eliminated without changing the meaning of the sentence:  e.g., "put up," "put up with," "put away," "put down," "put across", "put back," etc.  Textorus (talk) 10:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That one example, at least, is resolved by the more complete sentence, "Where you at, boy?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We say that all the time in Texas. Those of us who went to kollidge try not to write that way, though.  Textorus (talk) 12:48, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In a phrasal verb, the "preposition" is usually parsed as an adverb (if it isn't parsed as an inseparable part of the verb), since it cannot take an object of its own. Therefore, there's no problem with ending a sentence with it, even if one subscribes to the "don't end a sentence with a preposition" doctrine. In fact, one can use the variable positioning to test the difference between an adverbial and a prepositional use of the same word—"He tried to put across his point" and "He tried to put his point across" are both acceptable; whereas "He walked across the bridge" is acceptable, but "He walked the bridge across" is not. Deor (talk) 12:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, "I found some shoes to try on" has an adverb at the end, not a preposition. For your other sentence a stickler might say "Is it Christmas to which your children are looking forward?"--Cam (talk) 12:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Any stickler that prim should be stuck with a large pin and sent to bed without any supper. Textorus (talk) 12:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, at some point during the 1970s, I was taught that (invalid) rule, though I was also taught to distinguish between prepositions and adverbs. On, in "shoes to try on", is clearly an adverb, so even sticklers for this supposed rule would allow that sentence to end with on.  This supposed rule was invented during the early modern period by pedants who wanted English to behave like French or Latin, but English speakers and serious writers have never followed this would-be rule.  Marco polo (talk) 13:14, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A comment that may or may not have been made by Winston Churchill ... Gandalf61 (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Previous RD discussions of this topic. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 15:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A joke relevant to this topic (WARNING: obscene). --Theurgist (talk) 20:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Prepositions should be ended sentences with! Michael Hardy (talk) 22:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I learned the rule as "Never use a preposition to end a sentence with". :-) StuRat (talk) 05:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Problem you have not if talk like Yoda you do. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, in Esperanto land, prepositions can't end a sentence but they can move to the front of their verbs and become part of the word... so that's not a problem. Inter  change  able | talk to me  00:30, 10 November 2011 (UTC)