Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 24

= October 24 =

Need a blindingly good word, please
It's for a book title; a novel set in the 18th century, and filled with wonders and phantasmagoria - it was initially called Phantasmagoriana, but this was decided against by editors etc. It'll be one of those two part titles - the wincingly good word, then the more descriptive part afterwards. Latin words are welcome, as are latinish neologisms, as is anything, really.

Thanks

Adambrowne666 (talk) 03:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you looking for a rough synonym for phantasmagoria, like hallucination, fantasy, or mirage?
 * Do you want the title to convey an idea of "wonders and phantasmagoria"? I don't really know what that phrase means: It could be anything from ghosts to automatons to opium trips to decorations.
 * Is Phantasmagoriana a play on the word "Victoriana"? If so, do you really mean 19th century?
 * No connection to Victoriana, Card Zero. See -ana for a history of "ana" and "iana" words.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you give some examples of "those two part titles"? What might the descriptive word descibe?
 * What's your book about? What happens in it? Card Zero  (talk) 12:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Imbrogliana? Prodigiosity? Chimericae? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.23 (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Not knowing what the book is about, the abbreviations of your chosen title Phasm, Ago, or Goria seem catchy. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks heaps, everyone, for your patience with me; I know it's a vague question, but as a rough guide, The Poster Formerly Known As is definitely on the right track - rich fruity adjectival overblown nouns, evocative of bigness, hallucinations, dreams, grand madnesses; by two part title, I mean the sort of title that theses so often have - THINGIE: THE STORY OF THE THINGS IN THE THING. Adambrowne666 (talk) 20:19, 24 October 2011 (UTC) PS - I wonder if there might be usefully grand latin terms hiding away in species names...


 * You may have hit upon it without quite realising it, Adam: "THINGIE: THE STORY OF THE THINGS IN THE THING". What bookshop browser would fail to be thoroughly intrigued?  I love it.  It's perfect. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ha!Adambrowne666 (talk) 04:07, 25 October 2011 (UTC) - by which I mean to say, yes, it is a brilliant title, and would certainly cause a browser to stop in his her tracks, but doesn't suit this...


 * I have a list of non-words (all failed guesses in Boggle) which I will offer to you now in case it is inspiring. Here is the list: pantismo, randigo, canalet, togasm, rantasy, rhubats, nudistic, starehen, dreme, moronet, erratica, hatories, ectopath, screwist, roqueteer, outpee, erminal, nautimen, tardrace. Card Zero  (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Nudistic and outpee are words. μηδείς (talk) 01:05, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I love that you collect Boggle failures, Card. The novel is an 18th Century space opera - the main character is a braggart, and the adventures might all be false. I'm starting to think something ending with -iad, like Braggadociad... Hmmm Adambrowne666 (talk) 04:07, 25 October 2011 (UTC) Oh, and also, it's set in France, so the neologisms can be Frenchified...
 * After an interlude, my subconscious has also come up with Miraculaneum and Miraculennium. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.23 (talk) 05:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Magnificatus? Grandiosus? Clarityfiend (talk) 20:16, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hypnerotomachia Poliphili - I want me a title like that. Magnificatus pyrotechnorium. Magnificatus miraculaneum. Like a latin species name for a book. A love story built of magnificent lies and dreams, wherein the hero learns to give up the sword and take up the word instead. Adambrowne666 (talk) 21:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably not quite there, but Kaleidentosteria - made up of kalos, eidos, entos, beautiful form within. It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 21:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite there, but definitely on the way - the hero of this book was educated in the Humanities - would have known ancient Greek, Latin, French - I like the kaleid there - it's only recently that I learned what it meant; made sense of the word callipygus. We don't have to concentrate overly on the wonders in the story, despite my earlier stabs at a title - if we're doing the Hypnerotomachia thing, assembling words out of Greek or Latin (coining from the Koine) - then any or all of the above story-elements would do. Thanks yet again for all this, everyone. Adambrowne666 (talk) 01:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC) PS - if people want to continue this conversation elsewhere, let me know, and we can exchange addresses.

Y as initial letter of a name in Polish or German
In romanizing the author's name for a document handwritten in Yiddish from pre-WWII and Nazi-occupied Warsaw, the first name is indicated only by the initial letter yodh. In either Polish or German, I would transcribe this as J rather than Y (per the YIVO table presumably geared for English speakers). Could Y ever be the initial letter of a Polish or German name? -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, Yvonne Catterfeld is German, but Yvonne wouldn't be transliterated into Yiddish with initial yod anyway. Certainly no native German first names begin with Y, but Germans are not necessarily restricted to native German names. Nevertheless, the chances that yod stands for initial J are astronomically better than that it stands for initial Y, and I bet that's as true of Polish as it is of German. Angr (talk) 10:19, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Polish alphabet says that  has phonetic value of /ɨ/, while Polish phonology says that "The vowels /ɨ/ and /i/ have largely complementary distributions [...] however, /i/ is usually restricted to word-initial position [...], while /ɨ/ cannot appear in those positions " Therefore,  can never start a native Polish word, and I suppose only imported names such as Yvonne could. No such user (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Yvonne" is spelt "Iwona" in Polish. It's a pretty common name. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have said that "Yvonne" is absolutely the only first name starting with a Y in German. And by the way, you cold spell it "Ivonne", too.  After looking up this list I would like to correct this: There is no first name with the initial Y in German that would have been in use in Germany before 1945 except Yvonne.--Zoppp (talk) 22:47, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Why not before 1945? If Yvonne was in use, why not the male equivalen, Yves?  I found one since 1945, Yves Mankel.  -- Jayron  32  00:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Yves" is the French spelling of the German name "Ivo", which is spelled "Iwo" in Polish. Similarly "Yvonne" and "Yvette" are also French spellings (both are feminine diminuatives of "Yves"). None of these names would be transcribed with a "yodh" in Yiddish. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd hoped it was clear in my initial query: the name would begin with the consonant represented in English by the letter Y. Thanks to all for your input! -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The only name I can think of that would be spelled in Polish with an initial Y representing a consonant is Yeti. — Kpalion(talk) 11:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In other words, Deborah, there really aren't any, certainly not ones likely to have been used by native-born Germans and Poles before the trend toward foreign names became popular (well after the war). There may well be Germans and Poles named "Yannick", "Yolanda", and "Yusuf" today, but in the era you're talking about it would have been extremely unlikely. If you transliterate the yod as "J.", you have (by my estimation) a 99.8% chance of being right. Angr (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

What is it?
Whats Ponch mipe (not sure of spelling). I know its a mixture of mashed vegetables, but which ones?--92.25.104.152 (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Google searching finds it variously spelled "ponch meip", "ponsch meip", and "ponch mipe". It seems to be a Welsh analogue of the Scottish clapshot—basically a mashed combination of potatoes and turnips, with optional additions such as cream, pepper, bacon on top, etc. Deor (talk) 17:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I know it as "punchnep". Basically equal parts of potatoes and swedes mashed together with cream and seasoning. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Repeating the message
In newsspeak, we often see a statement made in indirect speech, immediately followed by a quote that uses almost exactly the same words.

Here's an example from today’s news:


 * Ms Plibersek hit back saying she hopes when she retires she does not make money trashing the party.
 * "I hope when I retire I never make a buck trashing the Labor Party," she said.

Is this a recognised journalistic technique and does it have a name, or is it just poor writing? --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:49, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * err… both, I think.  The technique is one used by academics and old-school journalists, where you will summarize an idea in a source and then provide an extended quote which shows that idea being laid out.  however, in modern 'sound-bite' journalism the 'summary' doesn't have much choice except to be the entirety of the sound-bite, so it becomes redundant.  but it's a trap: journalists can't say someone said something without showing them saying it, and they can't show someone saying something without explaining it, and heaven forbid they invest more than 15 seconds in a clip (that goes past the attention span of their viewers), so the silliness is locked in.  -- Ludwigs 2  19:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * This form (I hesitate to call it "style") of writing is frequently parodised in Viz "They do this a lot in Viz", said Wikipedia editor Tonywalton Tonywalton Talk 23:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * As well it might be. Monty Python had a go at it in The Brand New Monty Python Bok (alas, no longer in my personal library).  Thanks for the answers.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  08:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Chinese translation of characters on a wall hanging
What do the characters say on this picture (download it for a larger version)? I know the first four refer to Sun Wukong's nickname "Great Sage Equaling Heaven." I can't read the rest since they are too sloppy. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Here you go, 齊天大聖 歲次甲申年秋月瑞？於天津美院. Direct translation "Great Sage Equaling Heaven", In the year of Jiashen (i.e. 2004), Autumn, Rui ?(it should be the given name or style name of painter, I can not identify that character) in Tianjin Academy of Fine Arts, sealed (scripts illegible). I should say this painter's calligraphy is not as good as his painting.--刻意(Kèyì) 21:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:12, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The first seal maybe his/her name Rui ?, the last are his/her full name, I can identify the family name 楊. The unidentified character looks like 芬. There is a painter named 楊瑞芬/ Yang Ruifen. She is good at Gongbi, that is the style of your picture. If you can make a clear photo of the seals then it would be the best way to determine the painter.--刻意(Kèyì) 21:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Here is a close up. Those do look like the characters for her name. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That's 楊瑞芬's painting. See this auction page. Translation is here (See the description at the bottom). Oda Mari (talk) 05:41, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yah, I found some of her paintings last night. The crappy handwriting looked very similar. I can't believe that someone who paints this beautifully writes so badly. Thanks for the confirming links. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:15, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What's so wrong with the calligraphy?? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

his gang vs. the gang
There is a song I just can't get out of my head. It's the theme song of „Bob the Builder“ (one of the hazards of having children they never tell you about in the parenting books). Here's part of the lyrics:


 * Bob and the gang have so much fun
 * Working together, they get the job done.

I'm never quite sure whether it's „Bob and THE gang“ or „Bob and HIS gang“. Which got me to wonder if there is actually a slight difference in meaning between the two. „Bob and his gang“ sounds to me like Bob is the leader of a couple of thugs, (And entirely by the way, I never seem to encounter the word „gangster“ for anybody active after Al Capone got locked away.  Does somebody know a good reason for this?)  whereas „Bob and the gang“ is just Bob and a couple of people who are well known and therefore don't need to be specified.

Is this difference real or is it just me making it up?--Zoppp (talk) 22:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Every lyrics site I've looked at says "Bob and the gang", and it's pretty clearly "the" gang here. Whether "the" or "his", in this context "gang" is a recognised and non-pejorative term for a group of labourers working for a foreman (though generally the workers aren't anthropomorphic tractors), see for instance Wiktionary or this. Close to this though with slightly different connotations is Gangmaster; probably the only one qualified for low-wage agricultural work is Spud. Tonywalton Talk 23:25, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It is you. Whether its "an 'e gang" or "an' 'i' gang" it simply means the ones he goes with. Gang is derived from go. See the German. μηδείς (talk) 23:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not just in German, but in northern English dialect too, "gang" = "go".   D b f i r s   18:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As in gangway and gangplank. Mikenorton (talk) 18:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't agree. For me, "the gang" is subtly but unambiguously distinct from "his gang", although the exact nature of this distinction depends on the context. Generally speaking, "the gang" conveys a mood of collegial informality. It carries overtones of friendship and, in certain contexts, criminality. "His gang" is more literal and unmarked, and could also refer to a group of subordinates rather than to a group in which the subject is an equal member. L ANTZY T ALK 01:09, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And just because the word is ultimately derived from a form of the verb "to go" doesn't mean that it retains this meaning exclusively, or even primarily. Etymology does not govern usage. Pontiffs no longer build bridges, and candidates are not necessarily white (or candid). L ANTZY T ALK 01:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not just you. "The gang" is just the group of people who work with (or "hang out" with) the person mentioned.  "His gang" would have the suggestion that he led the gang (maybe the "ganger").  The distinction isn't absolute, but I think most people in the UK would probably read the situation this way, in the absence of other evidence.    D b f i r s   06:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed; until very recently in the UK, a "gang" could be an innocent group of friends - see Gang Show. Alansplodge (talk) 08:04, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but here the meaning is not a gang of friends, and definitely not a criminal gang, but a work gang. A gang of builders, ordinary UK English. Bob is, of course, the ganger. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * According to the wiktionary entry this use of gang comes from 'a number going in company'. Mikenorton (talk) 18:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Serbo-Croat spelling
As I wrote above that Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian employ very shallow phonemic orthographies and generally every letter writes only one phoneme and every phoneme is written by only one letter, it came into my mind that there is, or could be, at least one notable exception.

This principle means that if a root beginning with a voiceless consonant is prefixed by something that ends in -d, the -d- is written as -t-. But it is not when it would be followed by one of S, Š, C, Č, in order to avoid the occurrence of the clusters ‹ts tš tc tč ›, which would then have to be simplified, per language rules, to ‹c č c č ›. Therefore, combinations ‹ds dš dc dč › can occur word-medially, and, for example, the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian term for "president" is spelt predsednik (predsjednik, predsidnik), and not "pretsednik" or "precednik".

My question to those who are competent in Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian is: What is the standard pronunciation of such a "d"? I have never managed to pay attention to this while listening to Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian speech. Thanks in advance. --Theurgist (talk) 23:14, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, missed this one, and I usually at least skim over whole RDL.
 * ‹ds› is pronounced [ts], I would say; [ds] looks pretty unpronounceable. It does tend to blend into [t͡s], especially in quick speech, thus the "precednik" as a common misspelling, or an imitation of folksy speech. Thus, spelling ‹ds› is more like a systematic exception from the rule "write as you speak" (which tends to be exaggerated in our schools). Similarly, ‹dš› goes into [tʃ], but not quite into [t͡ʃ]. They used to be written as ‹ts› and ‹tš› for some time before 1960 Orthography (ca. 1920-1960), at least in Serbia.
 * However, ‹dc› and ‹dč› are not subject to that exception. They are written as ‹tc› and ‹tč›, but not reduced further into ‹c› and ‹č› esp. on morpheme boundary: od+cepiti > otcepiti (tear off), od+čepiti > otčepiti (to uncork, to open). That's to reduce the mutilation of orthography (e.g. there's verb očepiti, meaning something else). That ‹tc› is pronounced variously as [tt͡s] (if you're really careful), but more naturally as [t͡sː] or [t͡s]. No such user (talk) 16:12, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My mistake about ‹dc› and ‹dč›; incorrect stricken out now. But I got to think about another question, as I realised where another exception could come from. Does external sandhi work in Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian exactly in the same way that word-internal sound assimilations take place? For example, I'm listening to Željko Joksimović's song Leđa o leđa (live, studio) and trying to focus on how he sings the phrase "misliš da spavam", and as far as I can perceive it, at least in the live performance he keeps, or tries to keep, the [š] as such, instead of singing it out as [misliždaspavam]. Is this what everyone would normally do in speech, or is Joksimović enunciating? In standard Bulgarian, oddly enough, assimilations across word boundaries extend even further than assimilations within a word: -св- and -шв- have the values [sv] and [ʃv], but -с_в- and -ш_в- (the underscores standing for spaces) are usually realised as [zv] and [ʒv]. --Theurgist (talk) 22:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, external sandhi works as usual in BCS. However, I hear Joksimović, at least in studio version ( 1:07; tip: append &t=1m05s to YouTube URL to start from a specific time ) pronouncing [misliʒda] rather than [misliʃ.da]... or at least something in-between (if there is such thing as "half-voiced" :D ). Yes, enunciation is possible (thanks for reminding me to that term), but I don't think he's really doing it here.
 * I suppose the phenomenon of additional assimilation across word boundaries is at least plausible in BCS, but I wouldn't really know, as I've never paid attention to the phenomenon. Those are all allophones to me... No such user (talk) 10:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I sort of fail to see what you mean by "works as usual". The usual way of working is š > ž right before a voiced stop, as in duša > zadužbina, and if the same applies across word boundaries, [misliʒda] could be expected... (like in Bulgarian: можеш да [-ʒd-])
 * Anyway, I meanwhile came across some articles like sr:Једначење сугласника по звучности, sr:Једначење сугласника по месту творбе, hr:Jednačenje po zvučnosti, sh:Pravopis srpskohrvatskog jezika, where there is pretty much information on the spelling and pronunciation peculiarities and their exceptions. Hvala lepo. --Theurgist (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I meant, "Works as usual" => pronunciation follows the natural laws of phonology and physics. Those assimilations are not recorded in the orthography, of course. No such user (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)