Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 25

= October 25 =

English translation of SARFT Chinese film law
Somebody told me about: It is: "中华人民共和国国务院令 （第 342 号） 《电影管理条例》已经2001年12月12日国务院第50次常务会议通过，现予公布，自2002年2月1日起施行. " Do you know if anybody has translated this law into English? I checked the SARFT website and could not find a translation.
 * http://www.sarft.gov.cn/articles/2007/02/16/20070913144431120333.html

Do you know if the PRC government, a UN agency, the US or UK governments, or an NGO has an official English translation? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:06, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a translation from CNCI, which is operated by the Ministry of Culture. It's also available as a PDF from WIPO Ironfrost (talk) 05:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:49, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Word for Phenomenon
I'm wondering if anyone knows a word for the following phenomenon in any language (akin to deja vu or schadenfreude, sometimes other languages perfectly capture a specific feeling)

So the phenomenon in question is when you've never heard of a book/show/movie/cultural artifact, then when you (for whatever reason) hear of it, suddenly you see it everywhere. Now I'm not looking for an explanation for why it seems that way, I understand that part. I'm just wondering if anyone knows a word for it.

thanks!71.232.14.6 (talk) 00:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Try epiphany or gestalt effect for starters. Textorus (talk) 00:52, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * This is called The Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon. Bus stop (talk) 01:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ahh yes. I vaguely recall that several attempts have been made to create a Wiki article on the subject, but on every occasion it has been deleted for some reason. L ANTZY T ALK 01:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it would be better to just add something to the Baader-Meinhof article on this other use of the term. Bus stop (talk) 01:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * But the concept is only arbitrarily associated with the entity for which it is named. If the phenomenon is notable, it should have its own article, either under that name or some other name. L ANTZY T ALK 03:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This phenomenon has been given the name "frequency illusion" by Arnold Zwicky. See here. In my opinion it is a good term, and I try to use it myself, but it has not gained as much currency as one might wish. perhaps we ought to have an article on it, but I wonder if there exists enough material on which to base it without going all OR. Zwicky has also coined the term "recency illusion" for a related phenomenon on which we do have an article.--Rallette (talk) 10:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems to have been deleted because of WP:NEO. It's an internet meme of uncertain origin, so it's hard to find a reliable source to cite. The Damn Interesting article is citable, I think. That article links to the wikipedia article synchronicity. How about this plan: create the page Baader-Meinhof phenomenon, again. Make it a redirect to synchronicity. Mention the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon somewhere in that article, and cite it with a link back to the Damn Interesting article. For a bonus, also mention the term "frequency illusion", linking to Arnold Zwicky.  Card Zero  (talk) 12:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how this is a meme... It's been happening to me since long before the internet. Mingmingla (talk) 00:26, 29 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I was thinking about how to do something like this too. What I was wondering about is if there perhaps already exists an article which has as its purpose the collecting of mental phenomenon in which we seem to be mislead by our own subjectivity, or that our newly-sensitized awareness makes us more keen observers. Or simply that the frequency of occurrence of certain phenomena is on the ascendency. Or a combination of factors. For instance I think a related phenomenon is that we see patterns where those patterns might be barely suggested if at all. For instance randomly dispersed objects might be mentally processed so that we view them as a more rational arrangement. At the least there could perhaps be an article in the List format to gather together in one place such related phenomena, as long as they have been given some sort of name in citable sources. Bus stop (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a box at the bottom of hidden message (what are those kinds of boxes called?) which lists a bunch of related articles, including pareidolia (seeing things in randomness) and clustering illusion (seeing clusters in randomness). Now I'm not sure whether it's correct to see a pattern in these articles and regard them as forming a group. Perhaps it's an illusion. Oh wait, here's what you want: List of cognitive biases. Do you think Baader-Meinhof should just be mentioned in there, without an article? Card Zero  (talk) 20:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added both to that list, under "Biases in probability and belief".--Rallette (talk) 06:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"Behind the door when the anoraks were being handed out"
In McDermid's The Wire in the Blood, I found the sentences as follow:

"Sorry for disappoint you. I was behind the door when the anoraks were being handed out."

This is a reply to the speaker's boss who thought people at her age were good at computers.

I think the expression has some background, but don't know what it is. Please let me know.

--Analphil (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * See Anorak (slang) Roger (talk) 09:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

(e/c):In English parlance, to be (somewhere else) when the (something) is handed out is to be deficient in some way. For example: "'He was at the back of the queue when the brains were handed out.' = 'He has no brains.'"
 * Anoraks are associated with trainspotters, and from that are extrapolated to be a symbol of a nerd. In the context of the Wire in the Blood quote above, the character is thus saying that she is "not a nerd" and hence is not good with computers.
 * Hope that helps! Yunshui 雲水 09:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help! --Analphil (talk) 13:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Question about whether a decimal fraction is singular or plural at WP:MOS
Please participate in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style - it could really use some input from English experts. Roger (talk) 13:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * See Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 12. --Theurgist (talk) 14:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I participated, thanks for the tip. Textorus (talk) 15:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Secretaries
I am wondering how the word "secretary" which appears to be predominantly associated with low-paying (and stereotypically female) assistant positions, and yet also came to be associated with the heads of major organizations, e.g. Secretary General of the United Nations or Secretary of State. Secretary in the former sense has become so unpopular that its usage is borderline inappropriate, with terms such as "administrative assistant" or "executive assistant" or "office manager" replacing it, and yet we also have the same term used at the highest levels of government. What is the history / etymology that would explain the diversity of ways that "secretary" has been used? Dragons flight (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It would seem from the article that the terms "Secretary General" and "Secretary of State" were created when "Secretary" was a 'high' position, and the latter has since slid. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec) does the "Origin" and "modern development" sections of the first article you linked to not explain it sufficiently? At first, only the very mighty and very important had "secretaries" - e.g. a king might have a secretary just to handle his foreign affairs. Over time such secretaries became powerful positions in their own right. At the same time, people lower down the rungs also started to use secretaries, eventually evolving someone who takes calls and types. It may be helpful to compare and contrast the historical development of, for example, Secretary of State (United Kingdom) and Private Secretary to the Sovereign. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The job of secretary did not become a "stereotypically female" occupation until the 20th century... AnonMoos (talk) 17:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The classic exploitation of the ambiguity:

- 	 Jim: Who else is in this department? - 	Sir Humphrey: Well briefly sir I am the Permanent Undersecretary of State known as the Permanent Secretary, Wooley here is your Principle Private Secretary I too have a Principle Private Secretary, and he is the Principle Private Secretary to the Permanent Secretary, directly responsible to me are ten Deputy Secretaries, eighty-seven Undersecretaries and two hundred and nineteen assistant secretaries, directly responsible to the Principle Private Secretaries are Plain Private Secretaries, and the Prime Minister will be appointing two Parliamentary Undersecretaries and you will be appointing your own Parliamentary Private Secretary. - 	Jim: Can they all type? - 	Sir Humphrey: None of us can type Minister, Mrs McKay types, she's the secretary. -
 * From Yes, Minister. I hope adding it isn't a copyvio; it's easily findable on the Web, and only a small proportion of the episode. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the spelling and punctuation errors in the version I accessed. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It's my understanding that a secretary is an assistant. In the sense of a Government, said secretary assists the executive by taking a specific role of the executive portion of the Government's duties.  In an office, the secretary assists by taking dictation, organizing appointments, etc.  Its all forms of assisting the primary; just different forms of assistance.  -- Jayron  32  03:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The common ground of the two usages is noted in EO's writeup of the term. It's important to note that prior to women entering the workforce, secretaries in an office were typically male. And part of their job was to be a confidant of the boss. That's still kind of an assumption, despite the existence of the redundant term "confidential secretary". It's also important to note that the term "secretary" in private business has often been displaced by the term "administrative assistant". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Indo-European loans in Hungarian
For example. I've just learned the Hungarian word for a chicken is csirke. Is there any way this could be cognate to the English word and its Germanic and Indo-European roots or is it more likely just coincidence? I know more sophisticated words often make their way from Indo-European languages into Hungarian, but I would expect basic vocabulary wouldn't need to be imported. - file lake  shoe  20:13, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know about csirke, it could be a cognate, or the sound resemblance could be due to a coincidence; hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will elaborate here. But you shouldn't be too bewildered to realise that some languages may contain non-native basic vocabulary. Romanian is a Romance language, but has undergone considerable Slavic influences - notice the numerous examples of basic vocabulary listed at Slavic superstratum in Romanian; even the affirmative particle "yes" in that language is thought to have Slavic origins. Turkish, a Turkic language, owes to Arabic its words for concepts as basic as "world", "animal", and even the conjunction "and". I can't confidently comment on Hungarian, but I can say that Hungarian, much like Romanian, abounds with Slavic vocabulary, which shows up for example in names of some days of the week (szerda, csütörtök, péntek, szombat). But I don't know whether csirke could share a common etymology with English chicken. --Theurgist (talk) 22:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

There is barát, 'friend', coming from Russian (or Slavic) брат, 'brother'. KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  08:50, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * And the Romanian is prieten, cf. Bulgarian приятел, Russian приятель, Polish przyjaciel, Czech přítel. And also, in all Turkey, Kenya/Tanzania and Indonesia, they have very similar words for "book", and greet each other with "What's the khabar (= news)?", thanks to Arabic. --Theurgist (talk) 20:22, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you be more specific as to what you are looking for? There are words that are considered loans from PIE or Indo-Arian into Finno-Ugric or Ugric. There are later borrowings from specific attested languages into Hungarian. Björn Collinder lists a lot of the former in his Fenno-Ugric vocabulary: An etymological dictionary of the Uralic languages (A Handbook of the Uralic languages; pt. 1). For more recent borrowings you'd need to get a Hungarian etymological dictionary. Rutgers New Brunswick has a good Hungarian library. As for csirke with its internal /r/, any relation to chicken, which comes from W. Ger. *kiukinam, PIE *keuk, is highly unlikely. μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that answers my question. I know languages next door to each other swap words, but I wasn't sure whether it would be possible to have a loan from PIE into Proto-Finno-Ugric or similar, which is what csirke would have to be if it corresponded to chicken. - file lake  shoe  11:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The word for 'chicken' in proto-Celtic is 'kerka'. In most Slavic languages, the root 'chicken' is 'kur(k)-'. So there must be a link. It is unlikely that there was a word for 'chicken' in proto-Finno-Ugric, it is more probable that we have direct borrowing into Hungarian from a Slavic language. Chickens were domesticated in Southeast Asia and they came to Europe relatively recently from the south. There simply weren't any chickens in the proto-Finno-Ugric homeland. Chicken is 'kana' or 'hana' in Estonian and Finnish (borrowing from 'hen'). --Itinerant1 (talk) 05:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Garrigue
Can people help me unpack the etymology of the above. There seems to be more than one hypothesis. 1) Gascon for rock, 2) Swiss German for rock, 3) Quercus, oak tree. My inkling is for Quercus, because garrigue is scrub, a kind of vegetation, not the underlying rock. If "quercus", is it then cognate with "Derry"? And with river names like Derwent? The article says it is equivalent to "jarrie" in French, and that much is clear, "jarrige" is a common placename in the langue d'oil. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Why do you think that "quercus" might be cognate with "Derry"? Granted, they both mean "oak", but it's hard to see any phonological correspondence beyond both containing '-r-'. Garrigue says that 'quercus' "perhaps comes from an older, pre-Indo-European, root, kar, meaning to be hard", but Pokorny derives it from "perkʷus" which also underlies English "fir". (The change "qu-" < "p-" is found in other Latin words before a "-qu-" in the next syllable: "quinque" < "penkʷe" ("five") and "coquo" < "pekʷo" ("I cook"). --ColinFine (talk) 22:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If it did come from kar, however, as I read it the implication of the Garrigue article is that this root is cognate with the terms meaning "rock" in Gascon and Swiss German. That section of the article is just written confusingly --Miskwito (talk) 22:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The word would in no way be a regular development from Latin quercus within French. Harald Sverdrup lists Pictish cair, Basque *karri, Iberian karr, Caucasian χHerχV', and Etruscan ceri, all meaning "stone" in his article "The Pictish Language" in Languages and their Speakers in Ancient Eurasia, Shevoroshkin and Sidwell, editors. μηδείς (talk) 23:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

This isn't the first time this or a related question has come up; see Talk:Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  01:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * See garrigue (French), I use this website for reliable etymologies of French words. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 07:36, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Great resource. Interesting that it gives the oak derivation but without connecting it to quercus. μηδείς (talk) 16:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Gothic placenames
I'm searching for names of cities in Gothic and in other East Germanic languages, expecially for Italy, Spain and North Africa. I know they are poorly attested languages, but Barbarian kingdoms covered most of Western Europe, so it would strike me as strange that none of the original Germanic toponyms is known (even if Gothic was only the language of the elite and never really replaced Latin). --151.41.239.148 (talk) 21:54, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think East Germanic speakers founded hardly any new settlements in Mediterranean Romance-speaking areas, and existing settlements already had names. The Visigoths came in as a small Arian minority wanting to keep Romance-speaking Catholics at a social distance, and also keep what was left of the Roman government system in place in order to use it to extract taxes.  The book Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World by Nicholas Ostler has a brief discussion about how no real Visigothic loanwords exist in Spanish... AnonMoos (talk)


 * The name Gdansk (Danzig) is usually derived from the Gothic Gothiscandia. μηδείς (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Usually, no. That is one minority theory, and a pretty farfetched one at that (Occam's razor slices it apart). Much more plausible is that it derives from a local river name, as do the names of many settlements in this area. It's more likely that "Gutiskandja" refered instead to a region rather than a particular settlement. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:18, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I can't remember if it was Winfred P. Lehmann or Oswald Szemerenyi in whom I read the derivation of the Slavic name due to reduction of the yer vowels (I suspect the latter). But neither of them is a fringe academic.  If you have a source saying it is a minority view or, better, explaning the source from the river name, can you give it?  Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently there are quite a few in the Iberian Peninsula. Burgos is the only one I know offhand. Catalonia might have originally meant "land of the Goths". Andalusia might come from "land of the Vandals". A book on the topic is: Piel, Joseph M. / Dieter Kremer (1976): Hispano-gotisches Namenbuch. Der Niederschlag des Westgotischen in den alten und heutigen Personen-und Ortsnamen der iberischen Halbinsel. Heidelberg: Carl Winter. As I understand there are very few in Italy and North Africa, although Italy has a lot of Germanic names, they mostly date to a later period, after the Ostrogoths. Pfly (talk) 16:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)