Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 6

= October 6 =

Ĥ
How many and what words in Esperanto contain this letter? So far, the only one that I have encountered is monaĥo (monk). Zamenhof's original list of roots does not include any words that begin with it, and it is according to one Wikipedia article I can't remember "a rare letter". So exactly how many words do contain it? Inter change  able | talk to me  00:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * See Ĥ.—Wavelength (talk) 01:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * ĥaoso and eĥo are the two I most often use, myself. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Here are some additional words.
 * ĥameleono "chameleon", ĥemio "chemistry", ĥimero "chimera",
 * ĥirurgo "surgeon", ĥitono "robe, tunic", ĥolero "cholera",
 * ĥomero "homer (unit)", ĥoro "choir", ĥoralo "chorale",
 * jaĥto "yacht", traĥeo "trachea", Ĉeĥoslovakujo "Czechoslovakia",
 * Ĥinujo "China", Betleĥemo "Bethlehem", Munĥeno "Munich"
 * In hyphenated names, the part before the hyphen is the Biblical name, and the complete form is the modern form.
 * Ĥanoĥo "Enoch", Jeĥezkel "Ezekiel", Ĥabakuk "Habakkuk",
 * Ĥagaj "Haggai", Ĥizkija "Hezekiah", Malaĥi "Malachi",
 * Miĥa "Micah", Miĥael-o "Michael", Murdoĥo "Murdoch",
 * Naĥum "Nahum", Neĥemja "Nehemiah", Raĥel-o "Rachel",
 * Zeĥarja "Zechariah"
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:57, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Those Esperanto Biblical names seem much more awkward than the original English. μηδείς (talk) 15:21, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * They are more similar to the original Hebrew than to the English.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Please tell us more about the "original English", Medeis. --ColinFine (talk) 11:31, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * See Miriam_A._Ferguson... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:21, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I am rather surprised you missed the allusion, Colin.μηδείς (talk) 23:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Spoken decimal comma
How would a number such as 4,5 (that is, 4.5) be spoken in German, French, Italian, Spanish or Russian? Would one say it as "vier Komma fünf", etc., analogous to the English "four point five"? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 07:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes for German, with digits after the comma spoken individually, thus "13,45" is "Dreizehn Komma Vier Fünf". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes in French too: quatre virgule cinq pour cent. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In French 4,5: quatre virgule cinq; 4,5%: quatre virgule 5 pour cent. — AldoSyrt (talk) 08:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course, must have seen a % sign where there wasn't one. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Beware that in colloquial German simple fractions like 4,5 in the example might also be called Viereinhalb (four-and-a-half). This goes for other simple ones like 4,33 Viereindrittel or 4,75 Vierdreiviertel as well. --Abracus (talk) 14:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * 4,333... is "vier Komma drei Periode" or "vier Komma drei drei Periode". --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Or "vier Komma Periode drei", which is the unambiguous version ("vier Komma zwei drei Periode" could be both 4,2333... or 4,232323..., while "vier Komma zwei Periode drei" is clear). --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 16:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * See Decimal_point. --NorwegianBluetalk 16:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In Spanish, that would be cuatro coma cinco, though is not common to see 4.5 and cuatro punto cinco, especially in more technical contexts. 4,33... would be cuatro coma tres periódico, or more literally, cuatro coma treinta y tres periódico. Pallida  Mors  14:39, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"Right" and "Right"
Why are the nouns "right" as in a legal entitlement and "right" as in direction the same (up to a gender change) in so many European languages? I could understand if it was just a coincidence in English, but I know the same thing happens in German (Recht/Rechte), French (droit/droite) and Spanish (derecho/derecha), and looking at Wiktionary it seems to happen in Italian, Portuguese and even Russian as well. They all come from the same root (which apparently meant "straight" or "direct" - not that close in meaning to either of "right"'s modern meanings), but why did the words end up so tightly bound that they stayed the same across so many languages? I was thinking that maybe it came from the idea of being "at somebody's right hand", or perhaps the general classical idea that right was good and left was, well, sinister, but I can't find any articles (anywhere) actually discussing it. Smurrayinchester 09:39, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I too have noticed this, and am curious to know the answer. Falconusp t c 10:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Because they are all derived from the the Protoeuropean stem *reg-, which indicates moving in a straight line. The Polish and Russian words are also derived from a stem that means "straight ahead". Apparently, at some point, a metaphor was created so that "straight head" became associated with "morally correct", hence the idea that "rights" are the things that you are morally entitled to. Stranger yet is the fact that at some time, these words shifted in almost all languages to mean "right, not left" instead of "straight ahead" (but not in Latin). There's more about this on our article on Rights. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * More info in EO on right and left. Also, dexter and sinister. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just remember that "droit" or "derecho" are not related to "dexter" at all. They are related to the English word "right" and the German word "recht". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * EO doesn't go far enough back into the etymology, but there's an obvious and ancient connection between "right"-handed and "right"-everything-else. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Derecho is cognate with directo, from Latin rectus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The link between "right" and "straight" is still evident in French, where à droit and tout droit mean "to the right" and "straight ahead" respectively. In Polish, prawo has not only most of the meanings of Englihsh right (i.e., "opposite of left", "morally correct", "a just claim"), but may also mean "law" (in the sense of both legislation and laws of nature). — Kpalion(talk) 14:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In French we say à droite, not à droit. The Wiktionary is wrong. — AldoSyrt (talk) 16:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I created a redirect. Lesgles (talk) 18:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I may be spelling out what Baseball Bugs hinted at previously, but as to why 'these words shifted in almost all languages to mean "right, not left" instead of "straight ahead"', it may be related to the fact that in some cultures, there is a "right hand" and a "wrong hand". The "wrong hand" is used to wipe your bum and anything dirty, and it is taboo to touch food with it. Trouble finding good sources, but many google hits. If this concept was prevalent at an early time, it may have preceded the divergence between the languages mentioned above. Up until quite recently, left handed children were forced to learn to write with their right hand, and I've heard the expression "den pene hånda" (the pretty/nice hand) used as a synonym for the right hand when teaching children to shake hands. Not many ghits, but here's one. --NorwegianBluetalk 16:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've heard that "wipe" story also, in connection with why removing someone's right hand was such a devastating punishment in some cultures. It meant that their remaining hand was at least symbolically "dirty" forever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Reserving the left-hand for butt-wiping is common in some Muslim areas (see Etiquette in the Middle East), but I'm not sure it was ever the norm in Europe... AnonMoos (talk) 23:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * See Sinister.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   00:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, already mentioned by Bugs earlier. nvm. :P --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   00:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it was the norm in Europe, e.g. "cack-handed" in English. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:21, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There are many cultures where it's normal to eat with the fingers, and the importance of always using the right hand to eat, and why, are never far from the surface. But in anglo culture, we've lost that memory because, while our hand is still involved in the wiping process, it's not the unprotected hand.  Also, we usually eat without touching our food with our hands; we use third-party utensils.  At both ends of the alimentary canal, it seems, we've become disconnected from our fundamental nature (which, by the way, is a 9-foot walking tube of shit surrounded and supported by flesh and bones).  Also, we've become equal opportunity employers when it comes to our children's handedness instincts, and we no longer force them to use the right hand for writing but encourage them to express themselves in ways that are natural for them.  These may all be considered to be good things, but the upshot is we're much less conscious of the notion of our culture demanding we use a particular hand in a particular situation, regardless of an individual's natural preference for the other hand.  And we've lost all the bits of language that reflect these things.  "Cack-handed" is little-known and little-used these days, because we have no direct experience that associates "cack" with a particular hand.  Unless our overseas travels have exposed us to such practices, or our readings on other cultures have made us aware. --   Jack of Oz  [your turn]  11:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would slightly disagree with Jack that "cack-handed" is little used, at least here in the UK. Being left-handed myself, my clients often call me cack-handed. I'm pretty sure they do not realise the origin of the phrase though. 194.176.105.142 (talk) 11:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's some disagreement about the etymology of cack-handed; Merriam-Webster's says; "English dialect: cack, keck awkward". Actually "cack-handed" more often means clumsy or inept (in London anyway). Agreed it is still in very common use. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair comment. There's also "southpaw", where I assume "south" is a reference to the nether regions of our bodies, down there. It's funny how the first known European explorers of the Down Under countries (New Zealand and Australia) were the Dutch, who came from the Nether-lands.  Like attracts like.  --   Jack of Oz  [your turn]  11:57, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, I believe the term "southpaw" originated because baseball parks originally had pitchers facing west, such that right-handers were throwing with their "northern" arm but left-handers were throwing with their "southern" arm. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you're right, Rjanag. I was just assuming it up as I went along.  :)  --   Jack of Oz  [your turn]  20:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Although the orientation of the ball fields is conventional wisdom, it appears to be of obscure origin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Seeking help from German-speaker
Am I right in thinking that the references in Amir Teymuri describe him as a student? Does he seem notable on the basis of the references? --Dweller (talk) 14:06, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right. The references name him as a film music student and composer. Two references hint at a concert that will be given in Freiburg on October 18, 2011. They give no further details. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 14:15, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks --Dweller (talk) 14:36, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The article de:Amir Teymuri was deleted in the German WP (not yet notable). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 14:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And should recieve the same treatment here too. - the subject is not notable. Roger (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Request for a brief phonetic Greek translation to English (may possibly be obscene)
Hi!

I work in customer support and I would like to know if this line of phonetic greek is a request for help so I can assist the person who sent it.

gamw thn mana soy tin poytana mwrh kariola, trava psofa kolozwo paliompazo.

Thanks in advance... I was sent here by Reddit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.235.164.191 (talk) 19:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Assuming I put it back into correct Greek ("γαμω την μανα σου την πουτανα μωρη καριολα, τραβα ψοφα κολοζωο παλιομπαζο"), it's just obscenities (fuck you motherfucker etc...at least according to Google). Adam Bishop (talk) 21:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe the OP could thank the user, with regrets that he doesn't do anything "Greek style". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)