Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 7

= October 7 =

Spell check (English).
Is this text spelt correctly:
 * I ♥'ed Obama

I found this text here:
 * http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=49784642784%20503

and was just wondering. (I am not a native speaker of English btw.) 93.95.251.162 (talk) 11:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC) Martin.


 * It's not, as you must be aware, entirely english. The heart symbol presumably stands for love, and so the english rendering of the sentence would be "I loved Obama". In the English rendering, the apostrophe is not required; in this context, it denotes that some characters have been omitted. In the example you cite, all rules are suspended, but had I been the originator, I would not have included the apostrophe.


 * Since the heart symbol replaces the word "love", all that needs to be added to make "loved" is the letter "d". As it stands, it's equivalent to "love'ed", which is not anything comprehensible.  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  11:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose charitably it might be "I hearted Obama" ... hearted is not a very conventional english word, and the same comment about the apostrophe applies. See also grocer's apostrophe. "I heart Obama" is more common (than it should be) since the advent of the use of the heart symbol to denote emotional affiliation. (Where did that start? The I♥NY campaign?) --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * See I Love New York. I've always wanted to see stickers saying 'I ♣ baby seals'. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Whenever I see anyone here write 'IANAL', I always feel tempted to change it to 'I♥ANAL'..... KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have seen stickers that say "I ♠ my dog". Angr (talk) 09:19, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've actually seen a car (in traffic) with a "I ♣ my wife" bumper sticker. East coast USA, early 1990s. --Soman (talk) 18:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Another article defaced by the drive-by taggers. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If the tags offend you, fix the article so the tags no longer apply. -- Jayron  32  14:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Bugger that. The tags offend me much more than the supposed infractions. I'm just not a great fan of willy waving. I don't have time to fix the supposed infractions; neither, it seems, has anyone since 2009. But every visitor to the page since then has been inconvenienced by the tags. You may think that's a good thing. My milage varies. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've removed the article tags. I suppose somebody will put them back -- so what. Looie496 (talk) 15:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. Drive by tags are an insulting command that others do for the tagger what he will not do himself.  If there is no serious talk page discussion they should be removed summarily. μηδείς (talk)
 * The ♥ stands for the meaning of love, not the word "love". You can substitute "dig" for "excavate", but when you do the same for "excavated", you don't spell it "digd". -- 174.24.217.108 (talk) 17:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

"Spelt correctly" implies that you have a standard which you are comparing it to. The ♥ symbol is not a character in standard English, so from that standpoint, it is not correct. However, it conveys the meaning clearly and effectively to the average English speaker, so therefore from that standpoint, I don't think it's fair to say generally that it is wrong or incorrect. It is simply not standard. I think that the comma apostrophe is fine, because while it is not necessary, as far as I am aware, there is no established rule for the grammar in relation to the ♥ symbol. The ♥ symbol should however be avoided in nearly all formal contexts, but for posting on Facebook or something like that, it definitely works as is. Falconus p t   c 23:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Comma? Did you mean apostrophe?  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  23:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks, I fixed it. I had a brain-melt. Falconus p  t   c 12:15, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

In actual fact, the 't' in 'heart' in a lot of English dialects is dropped, and can be replaced by an apostrophe, meaning that the original sentence as the OP wrote can be considered correct. I personally, however, doubt the ugly kid in Mad Magazine speaks British English. Still, the phrase as written, however non-standard it may be, is comprehensible and understood to mean what the artist meant by it, just like a menu that advertise's "potato's" and "tomato's" as a side order for it's "curry's". KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:25, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up by OP.

OP here (from different ip#), after some thinking about the matter, adding: what if the heart symbol is considered an abbreviation? Compare e.g. "he overdosed" to "he o.d.'ed". Is "o.d.'ed" correct? If so, maybe that is what the good people at MAD magazine were thinking? 62.41.53.130 (talk) 12:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC) Martin.
 * "o.d.'ed" is definitely not correct, but Wordreference sites OD'd. dictionary.com sites OD'd, OD'ed, and ODed.  Again, if you are writing formally, it's probably better to say "overdosed", but those three abbreviated options are at least in enough use to be cited.  Does anybody know the "rule" for the past tense of an abbreviation like that?  As for your other question, what if the ♥ is an abbreviation, I think it is a symbolic representation of a concept, not an abbreviated representation. OD means "overdose", and almost any English speaker would understand it as such with an appropriate context.  However "♥" doesn't necessarily represent a specific word.  It could mean "heart" or "love", for example, and those are different words.  Some people read the sentence "I ♥ New York" as "I love New York", and others say "I heart New York", which oddly uses "heart" as a verb.  So I think it's more of a symbol than an abbreviation (though it is shorter).  As another point, maybe or maybe not on topic, for all the people who are interested in responding, do you think that the "♥" symbol correlates exactly to the words that we assign to it (heart, love, the suit of cards, etc), or does it have a different meaning (because when I look at "I ♥ Barrack Obama", to me it doesn't carry exactly the same message as "I love Barrack Obama")? Falconus p  t   c 21:21, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Does anybody know if there are grammatical rules are in general for using non-standard characters in an English sentence? I have seen it for example in novels where a Greek name is written in Greek. Falconus p  t   c 21:33, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

OP ones again: I don't know if there are rules for non-standard characters, but I thought of a nice example containing 3 in one sentence: Mad # 503 is sold @ $ 5.99 (cheap!). In my native Dutch use of characters for words is much rarer (except for the euro-sign).62.41.53.130 (talk) 13:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC) Martin.


 * That doesn't quite work. The sign # may be read as "number" but is called the hash mark.  The sign $ is called the dollar sign, and may be read as "dollar" but out of order since it goes after the whole numbers given and before the cents.  The heart shaped sign is used as a rebus in the original "I heart NY" to mean I love NY but can be read as "heart".  μηδείς (talk) 22:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You put the $ between the numbers? As in 8$48?  In the US, it should be written as $8.48, the former looks quite out of place to me. 77.59.251.138 (talk) 07:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The spoken word "dollar(s)" goes after the whole numbers and before the cents. Also, in American usage the # is usually read as "number" but is called the "pound sign", just as @ is read as "at" but is called the "at sign". The # was originally used, at least in some contexts, to mean "pounds" (as in weight, not British currency). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

language
How to improve my language in Engish and talk as Americans do??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anaghasreejith (talk • contribs) 17:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Make friends with people who speak (American) English. Talk with them a lot, and only in English.  Tell them to let you know when you make mistakes and to let you know the correct way to say something.  Watch movies in English and listen to songs in English.  Look up the words to the songs on line, and memorize the words.  If you live in America, go to a local library and ask to get an English tutor. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * You could also try to find an American English speaker that wants to practice your language, and make a mutual agreement to help each other out. Spend half the time talking in each language (i.e. don't switch back and forth every two minutes, but rather spend half an hour with both talking in English, and then the next half hour in your native language, for example).  Falconus p  t   c 23:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Make up your mind! You can do one or the other (nyuck nyuck nyuck). Clarityfiend (talk) 00:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * At least he isn't trying to talk like the English! *shudder* ;-) Falconus p t   c 12:13, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh no, speaking English the way the English speak it - what a ridiculous concept! :) --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  18:50, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I recommend Antimoon to help you learn fluent and correct English. You need time and discipline, but the rest of the resources (including helpful people) are widely available, especially but not only on the internet. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That looks like an excellent website, BrainyBabe, and I am very critical of most language learning courses. μηδείς (talk) 22:59, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * One thing to be aware of is that there are many different American accents, so you should decide which you want to speak, and talk with people who speak with that accent. The accents are particularly unique along the Atlantic coast (as far in as the Appalachians) and in the South (as far West as Texas and north as West Virginia).  With a few exceptions, most of the rest of the US speaks with a rather similar accent. StuRat (talk) 03:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

In appropriate  Please  EDIT.
Under 'FASTING' read down to CHRISTIANITY (I don't know what the took out to put this Foul comment). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.118.245 (talk) 17:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's already been removed, as is the case with most vandalism on Wikipedia. --LarryMac  | Talk  17:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your concern. You can also in the future revert the vandalism yourself; here's some information to get you started, if you are so interested.  Vandalism. Falconus p  t   c 23:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

origin of the word Tory
I'm curious about the origin of the term Tory. I noticed that some people refer to the current Conservative Party in UK as Tories, which mentioned them being called Tories after the previous Tory group.

thanks, --WhiteDragon (talk) 20:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems to have Irish origins 'From Irish *tóraidhe (“pursuer”)': - its meaning has changed somewhat since it meant "A pejorative term for an Irish rebel fighting against English rule at the end of the Confederate War and Cromwellian invasion". AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. "The term was thus originally a term of abuse, "an Irish rebel", before being adopted as a political label in the same way as Whig" See Tory. See also Tory (British political party) for how one faction of the Tories became Conservatives in the first half of the 19th Century and the rest became Liberals. It's not unusual for modern Conservatives to informally describe themselves as "Tories" - it's part of their political philosophy to value historic continuity. Alansplodge (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The loyalists once employed an army of aggressive poultry to help subdue the rebels. This feathered fighting force was called the "Chicken Catch a Tory". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)