Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 8

= October 8 =

pronunciation
Does "Arizona" read like "A-RI-ZO-NA" or "A-RI-ZO-NA"? --Capim Dourado (talk) 05:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * An IPA pronunciation is given at the very beginning of the article. If you don't know IPA you can click the link and it gives an explanation of the pronunciation of [oʊ], which is the pronunciation of the "o" in Arizona.
 * It's difficult for me to answer your question because I can't tell what you're asking. I assume you're asking if it's pronounced with a "short O" or a "long O", in which case the answer is "long O". r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 05:21, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the OP is asking if the N is geminated, however I don't believe it is. The second pronounciation as given by the OP seems correct. -- Jayron  32  05:25, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * English doesn't have any distinctive or phonemic contrast between single and double consonants, but almost all consonants which are intervocalic within a basic word, and occur after a main stressed vowel, phonetically sound like they belong at least partially to both syllables... AnonMoos (talk) 05:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have to say that when pronounced quickly it sounds like "air-ih-ZONE-uh", but when pronounced slowly, syllable by syllable, most would say "air-ih-ZOE-nuh". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→

Orange
It struck me as unusual that in both English and Spanish, the word for the fruit of the orange tree is also the name used for that color, whereas there are not many other color names that unambiguously mean a particular noun when mentioned in isolation. ("Violet" is one in English.) Our article Orange (word) says that in English, "orange" was used first for the name of the fruit, and then several hundred years later started to be used for the name of the color. My questions: 1. Why did this happen? (We must have plenty of evidence, since this is such a recent development.) 2. What (possibly parallel) development happened in the Spanish language to cause "naranja" to mean both the fruit and the color? (Well, in Spanish, the color is "anaranjado", which I'd transliterate roughly as "oranged" if we treat "orange" as the word for the fruit.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know the answer to your question, but I might make a [regrettably Sapir-Whorfian] speculation that "orange" is a color that cross-linguistically is not so "prototypical" so maybe people were less interested in giving it a name than they were for "core" colors like white, black, red, blue. I haven't conducted any sort of real analysis, but off the top of my head I can think of several other languages where the word for ORANGEcolor is derived from other color words or from the word for ORANGEfruit. In Mandarin, the color is 橙色 ("orange color"&mdash;橙 is the fruit) or 橘红色 ("tangerine red color"). In Uyghur, the color can be called جۈزە رەڭ ("tangerine color") or سەۋزە رەڭ ("carrot color"), or alternatively قىزغۇچ سېرىق ("reddish yellow"), so it shows both patterns. In French, I think the situation is just like English&mdash;orange is both the color and the fruit.
 * This is not universal (for instance, I think Korean has completely separate terms for the color and the fruit; the fruit term looks like a borrowing from English), but it is an interesting trend. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, this led me to Linguistic relativity and the color naming debate, which says only languages with 8+ words for colors ever have "orange" as a specific color name. That doesn't answer my question but its delving into the hard wiring of the eye and brain is awesome.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not quite that strange. It's simply the object that color is most associated with. After all, both are unusual colors seldom encountered in everyday objects, so any commonly encountered object that displays that color predominantly becomes a point of reference for that particular shade. Other examples in English for comparison: sepia (from Italian "cuttlefish [ink]"), turquoise, mauve (from French "mallow"), slate, beige (from Old French for "undyed wool"), etc. Violet itself is formerly the common name for a flower, and so is lavender and lilac and pink. This also occurs in modern pigment/color names in painting, interior design, etc., e.g.: eggshell, cream, buttercup, ivory, etc.


 * Also it's not really special to either Spanish or English. Our word for the color and the fruit orange is also the same - dalandan. Furthermore, our word for violet/purple is the same word we use for the purple yam, ube. I bet other languages also have similar color names derived from everyday objects (not necessarily orange, nor a fruit).--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   17:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * But our Orange (word) article says the name of the color changed to "orange". The Old / Middle English word for "orange" was around before oranges got to Europe.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe because æppelfealu and geoluhread were less accurate and more cumbersome to say? They're also compound words to boot. Orange (for "like an Orange") was more unambiguous, particularly since the color of the fruit was so striking (for Europe anyway, pumpkins and orange carrots appeared much later). Also I found this: Changes to Old English vocabulary. That article from Rjanag was great. Now I'm wondering which languages had "colorful roots", heh. PIE certainly wasn't.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   18:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Also the word "Orange" (the place) that existed before the arrival of the fruit was for a wholly different purpose with different origins. cf. "Bark" (tree outer layer) has different etymons than "Bark" (ship), the former also gave rise to modern "Birch" and the latter modern "Barge". Orange (place) was from Arausio and predated the arrival of the fruit, Orange (fruit and color) was from Arabic naranj and arrived with the fruit in Europe. They just coevolved at some point, I guess.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   18:40, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * "Our word" is dalandan, ObsidianSoul? I had to google "dalandan" to discover it's a word in Tagalog.  When discussing comparative linguistics, it's helpful to spell out which language you're talking about when you give an example.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Oop sorry. It's not actually my native language but I mentioned it several times in recent discussions above, so I forgot to point it out this time. It really doesn't matter though. In Cebuano (which is actually my native language) our word for orange is cajel (spelled in Filipino as kahel), a contraction of Spanish naranja cajel - the Seville orange.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   18:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * My own speculation on folk etymology here. Since oranges are not native to Europe, could it be that the name for the color evolved in European languages first? Then, upon exploration and settlement in the New World, explorers might have written in their journals about the discovery of a new "orange-colored fruit," with the term eventually shortened, e.g., "We sampled the 'orange-fruit' and found it quite sweet." Just my guess. — Michael J 17:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Our Orange (fruit) article mentions among other things that oranges probably originated in southeast Asia. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The article "List of colors" includes the following colors: almond, amber, amethyst, apricot, asparagus, boysenberry, brass, bronze, bubble gum, burgundy, camel, cardinal, cerise, champagne, charcoal, chestnut, cinnamon, cobalt, coffee, copper, coral, corn, cream, daffodil, dandelion, eggplant, emerald, fawn, fuchsia, ginger, goldenrod, heliotrope, honeydew, inchworm, iris, ivory, jade, jasmine, jasper, jonquil, lapis lazuli, lava, lemon, lilac, lion, magnolia, maize, melon, mint, mulberry, mustard, myrtle, olive, onyx, orchid, peach, pear, pearl, peridot, periwinkle, phlox, pink, pistachio, platinum, prune, pumpkin, quartz, raspberry, redwood, rose, ruby, rust, saffron, salmon, sand, sapphire, silver, snow, straw, sunglow, sunset, tan, tangerine, teal, thistle, timberwolf, tomato, toolbox, topaz, turquoise, vanilla, violet, wheat, wine, and wisteria. Some of them are named after fruits, flowers, vegetables, animals, and gems.
 * Also, the members of WikiProject Color might wish to contribute to this discussion.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

First, the etymology of Orange from Sanskrit naranga through Persian, Arabic, and into Europe is well known. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orange Second the word first applied to the fruit, not the color. The popularity of the color name came from the use of the fruit in the the coat of arms of the House of Orange and their use of the color in their related heralrdy, such as the flag of Ireland. The name of the House of Orange came from the city of Orange, Vaucluse, which had a Celtic origin and no connection to the fruit but coincidental similarity of sound. This etymological dictionary of spanish has a lengthy discursion on the word.μηδείς (talk) 22:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

As for Basic Color Terms, Berlin & Kay's seminal paper has stood the test of time. Basic color terms are those which are used non-technically (only QEftSG watching males know what color chartreuse is), represent focal colors or psychological primaries (people agree on the reddest shade of pure red, but not the beigest beige), and are represented by a word whose sole normal meaning is the color. In this case, orange is a borderline basic color term, because they original word meant the fruit--but modern speakers tend to treat the color as primary, as did someone postin OR above. Purple and pink  have historical origins in a dye made from the murex and the flower called the pink. These origins are obscure to most English speakers, so the 11 colors black, white, red, blue, green, yellow, brown, grey, purple, orange and pink are considered basic. What English speakers call baby blue is a primary color in Russian distinct from the pure blue of the RGB color scheme.

Note that comparative research bears out Berlin and Kay's work, and it fits well with human physiology. All languages distinguish dark and light. If the distinguish a third range of color it will be focussed on red. No language has such a basic color scheme as [baby blue, tan, and grey]. μηδείς (talk) 22:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I was reading this article after I looked up the etymology of the Dutch word 'oranje' and I read the first usage for the word as the colour, was in the 16th century. While this may be true of the English language, the Dutch Etymological Dictionary writes about a manuscript from 1282 in which the word 'araenge' was used in the broadcloth-industry describing the colours of a cloth. http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/oranje1

Mr. idiot in Brussel
Peter Oborne, a noted eurosceptic columnist, referred to Altafaj, a spokesperson for the European Commissionon, in discussion panel during a video-link appearance of the latter as "that idiot in Brussels." Paxman, the presenter, known for his tough questioning, then turned to Altafaj and said: "Mr Idiot in Brussels, would you like to respond?" Altafaj ignored Paxman's comment.

It this "Mr. Idiot in Brussel" also an offense? Or, Paxman is actually making fun of Oborne? Or, Paxman is letting Altafaj defend himself, therefore not patronizing him? Wikiweek (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Would a think tank of Euro-sceptics be a Euro-sceptic tank?  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm certain that Jeremy Paxman's remark was a put-down of Mr Osborne; however, it was an approach that might easily have been misunderstood by someone with English as a second language or who was not well aquainted with the British sense of hunour humour. Alansplodge (talk) 23:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "hunour"? Maybe "hunhour"? One hour making fun of the huns? Wikiweek (talk) 23:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hahahah.. Oh dear, I think my sides are going to burst. (N is next to M on the keyboard if that helps). Alansplodge (talk) 02:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ooooh, the british sense of humour. We should really have an article on that. It would probably take a few GB, because of its intricacies....plus the fact that foreigners seem to misunderstand it, in almost 100% of cases. KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  09:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We have an article on that: just check British humor or British humour. Quest09 (talk) 13:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Enclosed Infinity Symbol


Near the top of the page, an infinity symbol enclosed by a cirlce can be seen.

What does it mean?Curb Chain (talk) 22:20, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * See Acid-free paper and the image at the top of the article. Deor (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)