Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 17

= September 17 =

Une famille bourgeoise républicaine
The Cecile Brunschvicg page, evidently translated from its French WP counterpart, renders this as "[a] bourgeois republican family." As a native speaker of American English unfamiliar with French history, I don't understand the "republican" part. What would be a more suitable translation? -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I would interpret it to mean "supporting republicanism", i.e. supporting a form of government with an elected head of state rather than a monarch. Between 1792 and 1870, France fluctuated back and forth between being a republic and being a monarchy, but has been continuously a republic since then. Describing her family as republican then presumably means her parents and grandparents were always on the pro-republic, anti-monarchy side. I don't think there is a better English translation; it just requires some knowledge of the context to understand. Angr (talk) 08:05, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess it's important to note the lower case "r" on republican. HiLo48 (talk) 08:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Aha, so this qualifies that they weren't royalist-bourgeois. Now I'm wondering about word order, punctuation, or a slight rewrite, such as "bourgeois family of republican sympathies." I already took care of the over-literal "confessing Jews" (fr: de confession juive). Suggestions welcome. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The English is missing what happened after she met her husband ("...which led her to become an ardent feminist" or however you would like to translate "qui l'amena à militer pour le féminisme"). Adam Bishop (talk) 10:43, 17 September 2011
 * Thanks for the head's up and suggested addition, AB. And Angr, I'll follow your lead by adding the republicanism link. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

By the way, as late as the 1920s, there remained a very significant number of people in France who were still basically unreconciled to the French revolution (some royalists, some not), so that republicanism could by no means be taken for granted... AnonMoos (talk) 12:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm uncertain that "bourgeois" is the best word in English. It has negative connotations in English that may not necessarily exist in French. Perhaps "middle-class republican family" would be better. Angr (talk) 13:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I concur with the negative meaning, and, also, "middle-class" is understandable to a wider audience than "bourgeois". StuRat (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * If you are writing for non-academic Americans or even an audience with a large non-academic American component, I would try substituting "anti-royalist" for "republican". Americans who have not taken European history at an elite university would otherwise tend to assume that the family's politics were in line with those of the U.S. Republican Party.  Marco polo (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm editing the WP page, right here. Your reasoned suggestion is perhaps more effective than my interim solution of an internal link for republican, though the latter seems more encyclopedic and suitably accessible so I'm inclined to leave it stet. -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * They haven't gone away yet... see the official website of the French Monarchist Party (PMF) "The PMF considers that the Republic, like all regimes in history, has arrived at an end, at least for this cycle, if we accept the ancient cycle of Royalty-Republic-Empire." (please excuse any translation errors and omissions). Alansplodge (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this should read she was born into a middle-class republican (i.e., anti-monarchist) Jewish family. The article needs to stand on its own for all readers. Were the article a book, the meanings of the terms would be clarified early in the work. In an article it does not make sense only to provide a link to clarify a term which many readers will find misleading and the word bourgeois is indeed less neutral in connotation than middle-class. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The next question about that article (at least as far as I'm concerned) is how to pronounce Brunschvicg in French. My first hypothesis is (with the understanding that [œ̃] has merged with [ɛ̃] in Parisian French, which she presumably spoke). Any other guesses or, better yet, sourced confirmation? Angr (talk) 15:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, not used to using IPA, but, to use French spelling, it might be more correctly pronounced "Brounchvic", i.e. the first syllable isn't necessarily nasalized. A question on French wikipedia might settle it. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll post the pronunciation query on the French Wikipedia's Language Ref Desk. -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I waited an hour and you didn't ask, so I did. Angr (talk) 10:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I got the answer that it's [bʁœ̃svik], so I added that to the article. Angr (talk) 17:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The Duden Aussprachewörterbuch (2005) confirms that: "Brunschvicg fr. brœ̃sˈvik". Lesgles (talk) 23:00, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

French question
One strip of Viivi & Wagner shows two old ladies asking Wagner to speak French, because French is such a beautiful language. Wagner replies something like: After which the old ladies admire Wagner's French skills and the beauty of the French language very much. What does the quote actually mean? As far as I can understand with my limited French skills, it's something like "Shit! Get out of here! You old cows!" Is this correct? J I P &#124; Talk 09:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Merde! Foutez la champ! Vieilles taupes!


 * That's correct. It's usually "foutez le camp" though. And a "taupe" is literally a mole but "old cow" or "old bag" sounds normal in English. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Root origination
What is the root origination for the word "cost"? Where did that word come from?--Doug Coldwell talk 13:34, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ultimately from the Latin "constare", but through French "coster" (which ended up as "coûter" in modern French). "Constare" is also where we get the English "consist", although that comes more directly from the Latin form "consistere". And "constare" in Latin is actually "stare", "to stand", plus the prefix "con-", usually meaning "together". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * See also http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cost . Lexicografía (talk) 13:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That was answered well. Thanks!--Doug Coldwell talk 14:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Predicate Adjectives in Russian and other slavic languages with zero copula

 * Must Predicate adjectives in such languages be declined to indicate number, gender and case? (Presumably nominative?)
 * If there is zero copula in such languages, how can the mood and tense be indicated for predicate adjectives? For instance, if we have an adjective, say, "good" do we have to form a verb "to be good" by some regular pattern? --Que ntin Smith 14:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Predicate adjectives would normally be in the nominative case, but yes, they are declined for number and gender. The zero copula is only found in the present indicative.  Other tenses will find an inflected verb form like wona byla... "she was...". μηδείς (talk) 20:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * See Zero copula and Russian verbs and http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/быть.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Help needed with Chinese map
Could someone with a knowledge of Chinese tell me the names of the 6 divisions of Outer Mongolia and the 3 divisions of Tibet shown on this 1945 map of the Republic of China? (Warning: it's rather large.) --Lazar Taxon (talk) 17:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Northernmost Mongolian province is Urianghai. Then west to east under it are Khobdo (Khovd), Zasagt Khan, Sain Noyon [Khan], Tüsheet Khan, and Setsen Khan. West to east in Tibet are Ngari, Hou-tsang (Tsang), and Chian-tsang (Ü).--Cam (talk) 19:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Translation into Russian
How do you say in Russian: Welcome to the course of Michael Mikhail, two thousand eleven

Note that Michael Mikhail is the name of the course.

I'm looking for the correct pronunciation (in English letters please), inc. the stress on the correct sylables, rather than for the correct spelling.

HOOTmag (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You're going to have to explain why the course is named "Michael" for us to know how to translate it. We could, for example, change it to the Russian equivalent, "Mikhail".  However, if this course is about a specific person, like Michael Jackson, you would normally leave the name in the original language. StuRat (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Michael is an acronym, pronounced just like Mikhail. HOOTmag (talk) 21:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That's ambiguous itself. Most Westerners say "mick-hail", but the Russians say it more like "Mikh-ah-ill", with clearly 3 syllables.  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  21:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * And neither of those sound like Michael, which I pronounce "Mike-L". StuRat (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm talking about Mikhail, rather than about Michael. Please look again at my original question. HOOTmag (talk) 23:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * @Jack of Oz, I'm talking about the Russian pronunciation of Mikhail. HOOTmag (talk) 23:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * So far as I understand your question, I would translate it as "Добро пожаловать на курс «Михаил» две тысячи одиннадцатого года" (da-BROH pa-ZHAHL-a-vat na koors mee-kha-EEL dvye TIH-sya-chi ah-DEE-na-tsa-ta-va GOH-da, "Welcome to the Michael course of the year 2011"). If it's really an acronym, it might help to capitalize it: MICHAEL/МИХАИЛ, though the acronym will almost certainly not work in Russian (e.g., USA in Russian is США, "S-Sh-A"). Lesgles (talk) 16:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks a lot! That's what I've been looking for!
 * So, the phrase курс Михаил takes no case, e.g. dative and likewise?
 * How about 2012, and 2013?
 * HOOTmag (talk) 20:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If the course is actually called "Михаил", then you use an appositive construction, and the case is the same as the preceding word, курс (in this case, accusative, which looks the same as nominative). If the course is about Michael, then you could say "курс о Михаиле" (koors a mee-kha-EE-lye). For 2012 and 2013, change одиннадцатого to двенадцатого (dvye-NA-tsa-ta-va) or тринадцатого (try-NA-tsa-ta-va) respectively. Lesgles (talk) 21:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. HOOTmag (talk) 06:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

How do I say Jasmine Rice in German?
I'm translating a recipe name into German. This is the name of my recipe: 'Grill Pan-Baked Beef Tenderloin with Herb-Garlic-Pepper Coating in Red Wine with Jasmine Rice'. I have already translated this bit: 'grillt-Pfanne-bäckt Rindflieschfilet mit Kraut-Knoblauch-Pfeffer Schicht in Rotwein mit ...' (and yes I know the name is probably expressed incorrectly). So how do I say Jasmine rice? Also, if someone wants to correct my translation, that would also be nice. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 22:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The German Wikipedia has it as Jasmin-Reis. -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:16, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Weird, that wasn't linked on the Jasmine Rice article. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 22:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, the Jasmine rice article, yes. I didn't look there. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think BlackBerry is one of the few cases where having case sensitive searching makes sense, though I don't know why I capitalised rice. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 01:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Fixed! Who knew you could link to subsections in the 'language' sidebar? 86.164.76.231 (talk) 23:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd go with "Jasminreis" (new spelling may encourage the dash, though). You have a lot of modifiers in that recipe name... I'd' go with "Rinderlende mit Kräuter-Knoblauch-Pfeffer-Kruste in Rotwein aus der Grillpfanne, dazu Jasminreis" (or, more pretentiously, "an Jasminreis"), but I'd really try to drop some of the adjectives ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds about right, but that's the actual name of the recipe, it's more lecker that way. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 22:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Lecker? --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  22:43, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Lecker (German) = delicate, dainty. Deor (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * bullshit, lecker means "yummy!" mmmm, lecker!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.234.207.120 (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That's what my Treffpunkt book says, yummy or delicious (Das ist mir lecker (that's yummy for me basically)). You can also say etwas (something) schmeckt gut. In Saffa speak, it means the same thing as cool. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 22:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess I have to replace my old Langenscheidt's with something more up-to-date. Deor (talk) 11:14, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ja, Sie sollen den große Duden kaufen . Es ist nicht zu teuer. ;p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 14:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's another question, how do I say bundt cake pan, slapchopper (one of these things) and herb mincer (this thing, in fact this exact model :p)? xD Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 22:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "Gug(e)lhupf-Form" for the cake pan. I cannot make out the images very well - can you link to the full product pages to provide some context? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The noble Herb mincer and One of these thingies. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 23:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd call both of those "Nutzlose Schrankfüller". However, Amazon has the first as "Kräuterroller" oder "Kräuterschneider" here. The other thing has no real name - Amazon calls ist a "Zwiebelhacker", or you can call it a "Gemüsezerkleinerer", but its mostly known by way of a genericized trade mark as a "Zick Zick Zyliss". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh my, how incredibly rude of me. Thanks very much; you were a big help! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 21:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Just something per your original question: I'd be happy to review the full translation. Just give me a holler on my yet nonexistent talk-page. --Abracus (talk) 12:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

question to ask yourself to determine if you're in a dream
is there a set question you can memorize, that requires such high mental parsing that it only makes sense when you're awake? Then if you can answer it, you're not dreaming. Something dificult, like, Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.234.207.120 (talk) 22:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess I must be dreaming, because that question doesn't make any sense at all to me. Looie496 (talk) 22:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What does it mean to you? Anyway this was just an example sentence, I'm looking for another/better one.  If you are dreaming, however, then as a test I guess it works on at least one person.  82.234.207.120 (talk) 22:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Your sentence seems to do the job pretty well. I can't think of a better one right now; maybe when I wake up. Hans Adler 22:38, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, I actually came across that sentence "elsewhere" and it seemed to imply to me that I'm dreaming now, as I can't parse it. I repeated it to you guys to see if someone else would be able to parse it.  But you guys are also dreaming, apparently.  Is anyone here NOT dreaming???  I think I'm about to wake up... 82.234.207.120 (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * In case you are not trolling: your example question is a meme whose claim to fame, and humour, is that it makes no sense. That is the point: it cannot be parsed.


 * If you still want a way to determine if you are dreaming, I find almost anything works if you convince yourself you cannot do it when dreaming. So if you decide that pinching yourself will always wake you up if you are dreaming, or that you cannot scream while dreaming (useful for nightmares), or that you cannot read any text while dreaming (and so all text must be nonsense or blank), or... Then, generally, it becomes true. Or, I suppose, you can just try to take off, if you're in the habit of flying in a safe-to-test way in your dreams. Although that sometimes leads to major disappointment, when you wake up from a dream where you tried flying "like you do in dreams" and found it worked in "real life"...


 * On a more serious note, it is always wise to act as if the world you find yourself in is real, and as if you are awake, because the consequences of an error are greatly reduced this way. If you are seriously struggling with reality, I recommend speaking with your doctor. I do recommend this reality check for people fearing they are descending into The Matrix: have you ever tried to take more or less steps than a flight of stairs provides? You were absolutely positive, without even thinking about it, that there was one more, or one less, step. And yet, your foot did not support your weight in the air, nor did it pass through the floor: reality asserted itself. Your strong belief did not change reality, your expectations were averted. You are awake. 86.164.76.231 (talk) 23:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It is always wise ... unless there's a reasonable chance you might be schizophrenic or hallucinating. Card Zero  (talk) 17:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The lucid dream article includes the section Reality testing "...a common method used by people to determine whether or not they are dreaming", with several methods listed. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It's possible to think you know or understand something in a dream and then wake up to find you don't really know or understand it (source: personal experience), so I don't think this approach would work. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Building name (Korean)
Hi! In Seongnam, Gyeonggi-do, Korea, there is a building called " 판교세븐벤처밸리 "

Does it have an English name? How would it be romanized in Korean? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 23:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * 'Pangyo Seven Venture Valley'. NOTE: This is not a translation. This is actually what it says. If you really need a transliteration: ''pangyo-sebeun-bencheo-baelli
 * '' -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)