Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 23

= September 23 =

Dash it all man, what's a Canuck to do?
In British English, is it "south west", "southwest" or "south-west"? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Googling might help. Whichever gets the most hits may well be the answer you need. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * For me, 488,000,000, 239,000,000, and 1,140,000,000 hits, respectively. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't they teach English in Canada? μηδείς (talk) 03:54, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * They have some strange dialect of our language, 'Murican. Also, Southwest is how we say it typically. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 03:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * (EC x 3 ) Aye, an inexplicable and unsatiable desire to tell everyone how bear ate grandma, but no idea how to live in a foreign country which has no bears, no loghouses, no wild animals, etc. Lovely people. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * KageTora, your search results are faulty for the hyphenated term. Maybe I should rescind that--Google is not apparently distinguishing between strict (quoted) search terms for me. In any case I get 104,000,000 hits for south-west. μηδείς (talk) 04:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * My numbers were copypasted from Google. Have a problem, then shall it not be with me, but with Google. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't it depend on context? Here in the Kingdom of UK, the wind often blows from the southwest, but the Wurzels definitely come from South-West England. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The Wurzels certainly come from South West England (no hyphen).  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Have we really reached the point where people at a language reference desk, when asked a question about spelling, refer the questioner to Google hit counts, which are a meaningless metric, rather than referring to, say, a dictionary? —Bkell (talk) 04:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * and that dictionary would be..... pray tell.... :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:22, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't know, the Oxford English Dictionary, perhaps? Or any of the other various dictionaries published by Oxford? Or the Chambers Dictionary? —Bkell (talk) 04:28, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * For example, both the OED and the Chambers Dictionary list "south-west" with a hyphen. The OED has many citations of its use with and without a hyphen, but lists only the version with a hyphen as an entry; Chambers does not mention any variant spellings. —Bkell (talk) 04:33, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems, if the OED's citations are representative, that since the 18th century the spelling "south-west" has been the most prevalent in the UK (by a pretty comfortable margin), while the spelling "southwest" is the most prevalent in the US. —Bkell (talk) 04:40, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well, by a pretty comfortable margin there have been more years since the 18th century than there have been years in, say, the last fifty years. Is the hyphen really still prevalent?  I pick up The Economist from time to time and I would have thought I might have noticed that.  --Trovatore (talk) 04:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't choose "since the 18th century" in an attempt to distort the facts. Here are the British uses since 1961 given by the OED:
 * 1966   H. Davies New London Spy (1967) 241   To the south-west lies Chelsea, the arty quarter of London.
 * 1968   Ann. Reg. 1967 326   The South African Government remained completely unmoved by United Nations' efforts to plan the implementation of the 1966 General Assembly resolution that South West Africa be removed from South African control.
 * 1968   L. Blanch Journey into Mind's Eye (2001) vi. xxv. 309   Hardly less furious is the Koultouk, or south-west wind, and the Bargouzine, which rages across the lake from east to west.
 * 1969   Times 30 Jan. (Ethiopia Suppl.) p. iii/3   The south-west corner of Ethiopia is an area inhabited by Sudanese lowland fauna.
 * 1972   Nature 8 Dec. 339/2   The discharge curve for Iceland was constructed‥by extrapolating seafloor spreading isochrons from the ocean floor immediately southwest of the aseismic ridge.
 * 1972   B. Fuller West of Bight 133   Why, in the south-west, the term should be ‘falling’ and not ‘felling’ I cannot say, but so it is.
 * 1976   ‘R. Macdonald’ Blue Hammer xv. 83   Mildred was the most beautiful woman in the South-west.
 * 1980   Times 14 June 1/8   The Middle East, or south-west Asia as the Americans now call it.
 * 1981   P. O'Brian Ionian Mission ix. 255   This is part of a poem about the Courageux, Captain Wilkinson, running plumb on to the Anholt reef by night, wind at south-west, double-reefed topsails and forecourse, making eight knots.
 * 1993   Vintage Roadscene Sept.–Nov. 149/3   Goodall had now started to work out of Devon Concrete to all parts of the South West.
 * 2002   D. A. Agius In Wake of Dhow ii. 26   The seamen embarked on their long journeys towards India before the monsoons blew south-west and made their homeward journey in winter with the northeast winds.
 * 2006   K. Mitchell in B. Edwards Courtyard Housing iv. xvi. 178/2   The primary visitor's entry occurs on the south-west façade and leads to the public areas of the house.
 * 2008   Nature 6 Mar. 24/1   On 3 January 2005, a fisherman working 25 kilometres off the southwest coast of Florida noticed that the baitfish in his seawater tank were spinning and dying.
 * When used as a short form of "South West Africa":
 * 1976   J. McClure Rogue Eagle i. 22   Ma‥said she'd write to her family in South West, but he said that was just another Bantustan these days.
 * 1978   S. Naipaul North of South ii. vi. 245   Abraham had been in Namibia (‘South-West’).‥ It was in South-West‥that he and Tessa had met.
 * —Bkell (talk) 05:07, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that, if you haven't noticed "south-west" in The Economist, it may be because their house style omits the hyphen. It seems from the above citations that Nature uses "southwest". —Bkell (talk) 05:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nature abhors a vacuum. That's their problem, though.  "Southwest" makes as much sense to me as "vicepresident", "bluegreen algae", "referencedesk" or "alot".  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  05:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * See how the fates their gifts alot
 * For some are happy; Jack is not
 * American usage, obviously, but see Southwest Airlines and North by Northwest. And in Canada, History of the Northwest Territories. And in Australia, Southwest Australia. But in England, South West England. ←baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In the UK, I believe the tendency is not to use a hyphen. To describe places, two separate words would almost invariably be used (South West England, etc.), but to describe a wind direction, for example, they would often be combined as one word.  For example, "winds today in South East England are expected to come mainly from the southeast" - or more likely, "...from a southeasterly direction."  But I could be wrong, and alternative variants would probably not be considered odd.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:14, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * British English is a foreign language to me (though one of my stronger foreign languages). Given that, I wonder whether an attentive British editor would use the unhyphenated south west or South West when the term is used as a noun and the hyphenated south-west when the term is used as a modifier, in which case compounds are usually hyphenated.  In my native language, American English, southwest is always one word, except in references to the historic South West Africa, where American editors would want to defer to the official spelling of that territory's name.  Marco polo (talk) 14:09, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, note that written Canadian English often follows British standards, but not always. The authoritative reference for Canadian English is the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, and, if you are in doubt how to handle south-west/southwest, that would be the source to check.  Online access requires a subscription.  For what it's worth, googling within the ".ca" domain, southwest gets 17 million hits versus ~10 million for either south west or south-west.  Marco polo (talk) 14:22, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not helping much but see also Sou'wester. Alansplodge (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I was looking for the right format for directions in a British article. [Flip coin] I think I'll go with south-west and its ilk. Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Interesting that in many cases where it is spelled as one word in American the stress still appears on the second syllable. μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The Google thing is severely flawed; there are a vast number of English speakers in the world, only some of whom come from Great Britain (as the question asks). Therefore the Google results will post what has been written by everybody, whether or not they came from England, and whether or not they speak English well at all.  Falconus p  t   c 06:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Grammer (sic)
Is this one of the most commonly misspelt words in Wikipedia? It's certainly one of the most annoying misspellings. I reckon I see it as at least part of the Edit summary for grammar corrections around once a week. Today's example is here. How can people so interested in getting the language right get this so wrong? (Yes, I know this is really just my pedantry on display, but isn't that what the edit is about anyway?) HiLo48 (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have any statistics, but it's a commonly misspelled word; I'm not sure what more there is to say about it. rʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * See Lists of common misspellings.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as commonness in WP goes, one I see very frequently in articles is lead for led. In discussions, "reign in" and "free reign" for "rein in" and "free rein" are very frequent, and those are ones I see a lot even in professionally published (though obviously not professionally edited) prose. Deor (talk) 21:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I write "lead" all the time. Had it corrected 28 times, I think. Have it wrong in my head, clearly. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 22:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Using "-er" not "-ar" when the sound is the same is perhaps understandable; even if you believe not, the problem is also repeated in "calendar" and perhaps more (possibly "alter" supposedly meaning the part of a church). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll admit that my post was a bit of a rant. I can accept minor misspellings much of the time, but when they occur in the context of correcting someone else's language use, they stand out a lot more. HiLo48 (talk) 21:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Those who correct others (and there is still a place for this, despite the politically correct times in which we live) must be triply sure to have their own houses in order, lest they be shown up as hypocrites or idiots or laughing stocks.
 * This project operates on consensus, yet how often do we see editors waxing lyrical and spelling it as "con" tacked onto census. It's nothing to do with counting heads - or votes - despite appearances.  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  21:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That example îsn't quite ironic, because it is a spelling and not a grammatical error. (The spelling of that edit summary you mentioned is really in the toilet.) What I find hilarious is when people say pronunciation as [pɹʷˤəˈnɑʊnt͡siˌeɪʃən] instead of [pɹʷˤəˈnʌnt͡siˌeɪʃən](that's how we Canadians say it, anyway). Everyone whom I have corrected on this topic has appreciated the irony and laughed. Inter  change  able | talk to me  22:28, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If someone complains about my pedantry, I apologise for being such a "pi-dent" or "pay-dent" and wait for the correction. If none comes, I at least assume they took the apology. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 22:32, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And not just the edit summary, Interchangeable. The edit itself changed:
 * Diseases, including cholera which affects some 3 million people each year can be largely prevented when …
 * to:
 * Diseases, including cholera affect some 3 million people each year can be largely prevented when …
 * Still hopelessly wrong (worse, in fact, than the original). It ought to be something like:
 * Diseases, including cholera, which affects some 3 million people each year, can be largely prevented when …
 * The 2 parenthetical commas are essential to the meaning. --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  23:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Funny, I have seen grammer here so often I assumed it was one of those silly affectations like gaol, not an unwitting error.

You are spot on with the commas, Jack. But I would also change "can be largely prevented" to "can largely be prevented." The former sounds somewhat like saying the pregnancy was largely prevented.μηδείς (talk) 02:26, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Medeis. I'd agree with your other idea, too.  But I don't see "grammer" as an affectation - nobody ever writes "grammetical" (not even New Zealanders :) .  Many write "grammer" because they've seen so many others doing so that they actually think it's correct.  Maybe one day it will become the accepted way of spelling the word.  Not in my lifetime, hopefully, and not if I can help it - but one lone voice has so little influence over these things.  That's how a great deal of language change starts out - a ripple of error and ignorance, which soon becomes a tsunami of correctness, and what was once indisputably true and right becomes relegated to "old hat" or "pedantry".  Some people jump on the language-change bandwagon very early, usually with indecent haste; others, like me, do so only when a loaded gun is pointed at their head.  I still see value in commanding the tsunami to stop and go back whence it came.  Some losing battles are worth losing.  --  Jack of Oz  [your turn]  02:52, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and I see misspelt Edit summaries as part of that tsunami. I wish we could correct such errors. HiLo48 (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Spelt is pretty much archaic by now; in my opinion spell has become a regular verb. Inter  change  able | talk to me  22:39, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's bad news. I always created the past tense normally, as "spelled", until people here convinced me that "spelt" is the standard way now.  You're telling me I have to reverse that decision?  --  <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  22:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If "spelt" is archaic, maybe I am too. HiLo48 (talk) 22:57, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Spelt is not exactly archaic; it's still grown as a legitimate crop, and you can buy bread made from it. It's a niche item though. --Trovatore (talk) 23:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a trend we should avoid getting sweeped up in. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Jesus swept. :)  --  <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  02:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * List of English irregular verbs supports both spelled and spelt as past-tense forms of the verb spell.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Pure speculation, but could some of this spelling be related to Kelsey Grammer? Much like beatle for the insect, or Haley's Comet (after Bill Haley and his Comets? --Trovatore (talk) 07:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Anecdotal here, but when I lived in South Yorkshire, the spelling of "grammer" was quite common: as was the word "grammer", which was a contraction of "grandmother", an alternative spelling of "grandma". I thought the two were related. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:40, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The teacher comes to little Johnny's house for a visit. When she knocks at the door, Johnny himself answers.
 * "Hello, Johnny, may I speak to your mother, please?"
 * "She ain't here."
 * "Johnny! Where's your grammar?"
 * "In the kitchen, bakin' cookies."
 * (Yes I know, that one's got whiskers on it.) Angr (talk) 15:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Deeply popular
There are 712,000 ghits for "deeply unpopular" but only 35,000 for "deeply popular". Why would that be? Is it that popularity is a shallow, ephemeral sort of thing, but people only get really serious when discussing how unpopular somebody is? What is the corresponding adverb to go with "popular", and who makes these decisions anyway? Why wasn't I consulted? -- <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  23:00, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Instead of deeply, highly, and heavily, we can simply say very.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * As semi-fixed phrases, I would think that the commonly-used opposite of "deeply unpopular" would be "highly popular"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yup. 'Good' is above 'bad' in most (perhaps all?) cosmologies. - 'heaven' is above, while 'hell' is beneath our feet. As for why, Claude Lévi-Strauss may give us a clue, and I'm sure that evolutionary psychology has an opinion on it, but it just seems to be the way we visualise things... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. But "deeply" does not imply "lower".  One who studies a subject deeply gets into complexities; this doesn't lower their thinking, it broadens it.  In the unpopular case, it just means dislike/hatred of the person is widespread.  The like/love of another person could be just as widespread, just as "deep".  But I guess people generally have a mental scale that's vertically oriented, with good/positive attributes on top and bad/negative ones at the bottom, hence the highly vs. deeply allusions.  Pianists tend to see things in a left-right horizontal paradigm, where neither hand is either good or bad.  --  <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  03:23, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But the deep notes are on the left.... HiLo48 (talk) 04:11, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "Deep notes"? I know not such terminology. I know about high and low notes or pitches.  People with deep voices can still sing high and low notes, within the limits of their ranges.   --  <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  05:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You're not blessed with soaps for two hours every night, with omnibus editions at the weekend, and when the soaps aren't on we have interviews with the actors and telly people giving themselves a pat on the back by showing us compliations of excerpts from past episodes. People love to kick off. It's not surprising that 'deeply unpopular' gets more hits. People love having a go at other people, even if they are fictional. <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, Jack, that you both pose the question as if you are ignorant, and dismiss the answers given as if you were an expert. Which is it? I find it hard to credit that you fail to undestand deep means profound only when the surface is the superficial. Nor do I think you fail to comprehend the contrast of high versus low. You play the sophomore par excellence. μηδείς (talk) 05:44, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, one more thing I do well, to add to the 3 other things in my micro-panoply. But wait, I don't even know what "play the sophomore" even means; that's how much of an "expert" I am.  I haven't dismissed anything.  Or anyone, but I might be tempted. We're having an interchange of ideas and opinions here.  You got a problem with that?  If you can contribute something meaningful, please be my guest.  Otherwise, less armchair analysis of my modus operandi would be appreciated.  None at all would be excellent. --  <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  06:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sophomore, that's one of those American words never used anywhere else that I've never bothered to work out the exact meaning of. Something to do with college (whatever that really is in America) or university, I gather.
 * I'm well aware what sophomore means; and for those who don't know, we have links here. But "play the sophomore" is a phrase I am unfamiliar with.  I'm sort of getting it was meant as a put-down in the guise of a compliment; but I remain welded to AGF until that's confirmed.  --  <font face="Papyrus">Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus">[your turn]  11:10, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * See (anticipated archive at Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 22).
 * —Wavelength (talk) 15:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not really responsive to Jack's question.
 * I think the stereotype is that sophomores (college sophomores, not high school) have acquired a certain level of intellectual self-confidence perhaps a bit in advance of their actual intellectual accomplishments, and are prone to engaging in facile paradoxes. There's a word, sophomoric, that I think is related to this stereotype. --Trovatore (talk) 20:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)