Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 4

= September 4 =

French pronunciation
Hellow! I have another question about the French language and pronunciation: In the future (and conditional tenses) of some verbs, for example préférer, tolerer, and others, there is an extremely unpleasant repetition of the [ʁ] sound in the string [-eʁəʁɛ], and in rapid speech the [ə] might become an even less pleasant glottal stop. Is there a way French native speakers, always concerned for euphony, get around this? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.85.35 (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I assume you're talking about forms like prefererais, tolererais, etc.? I may be wrong, but in my experience I think what I hear many people doing in rapid speech is removing the [ə] (e.g. [pʁefeʁəʁe] --> [pʁefeʁʁe]) and lengthening the [ʁ] (e.g. [pʁefeʁʁe] --> [pʁefeʁ:e]). At least, that's what it sounds like to my ear. If that's what their doing, it would also explain how they get ride of the ʁ-repetition. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 03:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think I've heard something a bit different, in that case they remove the middle [e] so it becomes, for example, [pʁefʁəʁɛ] (it's not [pʁefʁəʁe] is it? Wouldn't that be the future "préférai"?). This can also happen in other words where there is no repetition of [ʁ], like "aider" ([edʁɛ]). But I admit I could be entirely wrong; if someone is speaking that fast in French I'm probably paying more attention to what the word is than what tense it's in. Maybe this is just how I pronounce words like that, rightly or wrongly. In any case, the question also assumes that repetition of [ʁ] is unpleasant, and that French speakers are always concerned for euphony, but why? This sounds more like English stereotypes of French than what French speakers actually think. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Being a native French speaker, I agree that prefererais is not very beautiful to my ears and, unless they want to articulate very clearly, nearly all the French that I have spoken to drop the e and pronounce it with a double r [pʁefeʁʁe]. But maybe we do that because it save time, rather than euphony?--Lgriot (talk) 12:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

TEOTWAWKI
The End Of The World As We Know It. Does your favorite other language have a similarly clichéd translation of this expression? —Tamfang (talk) 04:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's time I've had some time alone...-- Jayron  32  04:17, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Just the other way around. Here is a non-clichéd translation into French: "La Fin du Monde comme Nous La savons...".
 * When you translate it back into English, it again becomes clichéd...
 * HOOTmag (talk) 07:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not my favorite other language, but German has "Das Ende der Welt, wie wir sie kannten" or "Das Ende der Welt, wie wir sie kennen". It's probably a direct borrowing of the English phrase. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 09:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * 私たちの知ってる世界の終わり - Japanese. It means 'the end of the world we know'.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  20:29, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Or if you want it in Luxembougish, "dë Ende vu dë Welt, wéi mir séi kënnen". --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  21:10, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ang katapusan ng mundong nakagawian (the end of the world that we've grown used to) and Ang katapusan ng mundong nakalakhan (the end of the world we've grown up to') - Filipino. They're equivalents, and I've never heard them used elsewhere in common speech or the media, so no, we don't have a clichéd version of it. We usually just refer to the end of the world as katapusan/wakas ng mundo (end of the world) or an even simpler delubyo (deluge).--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   21:15, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It's only a cliche because of the R.E.M. song, isn't it? There are only four foreign-language versions of that article, and they all use the English title of the song as the title, and only one of them even translates it in the lead. So my guess is that this is not a cliche in any other language. -- BenRG (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

"why" as an -- interjection, is that really it?

 * But to fight and to fight when hope's out of sight --
 * Why, that's the best game of them all!
 * --Robert Service, "The Quitter"

What is this why, exactly? Wiktionary calls it an "interjection" and an expression of "mild surprise". I guess I can't think what it is except an interjection, but I'm not completely convinced, and "mild surprise" doesn't seem to quite fit either.

Also, etymology? "Why" what? --Trovatore (talk) 09:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * From the OED:
 * Why IV. 7. Used interjectionally, before a sentence or clause.
 * a. As an expression of surprise (sometimes only momentary or slight; sometimes involving protest), either in reply to a remark or question, or on perceiving something unexpected.
 * b. Emphasizing or calling more or less abrupt attention to the statement following (as in the apodosis of a sentence), in opposition to a possible or vaguely apprehended doubt or objection.
 * c. As an emphasized call or summons, expressing some degree of impatience. Obsolete
 * d. why, so! an expression of content, acquiescence, or relief. Obsolete or archaic
 * Only the first two meanings are current in English; c is 17th century and d 16th-early 19th century. Sense b seems closest to your example - why "emphasizing or calling more or less abrupt attention to the statement following"; this is a different meaning from the "mild surprise" one. Some examples of sense b from the OED:
 * 1590   T. Lodge Rosalynde (1592) N 2 b,   "And to conceal it, why it doubled her grief."
 * 1882   W. Besant All Sorts of Men II. xxiii. 139   "‘Not a doubt,’ added the Professor. ‘Why, it stands to reason.’"
 * There's no etymology given for this particular sense.--Colapeninsula (talk) 15:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that is helpful. --Trovatore (talk) 19:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Historically, "why" is the instrumental case of "what". "What" can also be used as an interjection. --ColinFine (talk) 17:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Trying to recall an idiom
Dear Wikipedians:

I am trying to recall an idiom that describes "under worst case scenario, I would...". I think it's along the form of "when _____________ comes to _____________, I have no choice but to do such and such."

Thanks for your help.

174.95.169.5 (talk) 14:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * When hell freezes over? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * When push comes to shove? --TammyMoet (talk) 14:48, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's it! That's it! That's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks so much. L33th4x0r (talk) 19:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * When the [situation] comes to a head? (note used for both the worsening or the improvement of a given crisis) --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   15:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * When worst comes to worst? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 15:51, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't that be "when the worst comes to the worst"? — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think it's maybe "when worse comes to worst" (which is what I meant to type, oops!) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 18:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That seems to be a non-standard usage. OED: "if the worst come(s) to the worst: if things fall out as badly as possible or conceivable. ... 1904 S. J. Weyman Abbess of Vlaye iii, If the worst comes to the worst, I can aid him." — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Might be a BrE/AmE difference. In the US, I don't think I've ever heard it with a "the". r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've heard it both with and without the "the" (I'm American). In rapid speech, worse and worst probably become homophones before comes; simplifying [(r)stk] to [(r)sk] seems very straightforward. Angr (talk) 19:31, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't buy that explanation; I think it's exactly the opposite. When worse comes to worst is the correct expression, the one that makes logical sense, because it shows the progression.  But in rapid speech, the words worse and worst sound similar, as you say, so making them both into worst is an understandable error, along the lines of you've got another thing coming. --Trovatore (talk) 19:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The earliest quotation in OED dates to 1597 and states "If the worst come to the worst ..." All the other quotations between 1622 and 1904 are of the same form, save one: "1719 D. Defoe Life Robinson Crusoe 234 If the worse came to the worst, I could but die." None of the quotations omit the thes. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 20:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No one is disputing that those quotations are in the OED. I was just pointing out how I hear the phrase used in the 2000s, not how records show it was used in the 1600s. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 20:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I was responding to Trovatore's point. If the expression if the worst comes to the worst developed from if the worse comes to the worst one would expect to see more historical examples of the latter, but there don't seem to be many (apart from the 1719 Robinson Crusoe quotation). Then again, the quotes in the OED are not exhaustive. I agree with you that the addition/omission of the thes is probably a BrE/AmE thing. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 20:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, well, could be. I haven't researched it.  I was just speculating on what seemed to me the most credible evolution.
 * (I am pretty sure about thing/think, though.) --Trovatore (talk) 21:06, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with that. For years I understood it as "You've got another thing coming", and I would spare those who make the same mistake.  But no punishment is too severe for those who say "anythink" or "nothink" or "somethink".  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That would just be Sergeant Schulz, right? --Trovatore (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * By no means. I can't imagine why anyone would ever say it, but I've often heard it, and my memory goes back way before HH, back to my late 1950s school days when we were drilled about saying "something" and not "somethink".  So it was recognised as a phenomenon perceived to be in need of correction even then.  Maybe it's a Down Under thing, I don't know.  I don't know nuffink about it, mate. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * JackofOz may be making "somefink outa nuffink" as we say in London. One of many linguistic curiosities to have migrated south. Alansplodge (talk) 00:35, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In my (UK) experience it's surprisingly common to hear people who are otherwise reasonably "well spoken" saying "somethink" and "nothink" (without Th-fronting). I'm sure they would never say "think" for "thing", so I find it rather baffling. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I am the OP. The answer I was looking for is "when push comes to shove". Thanks all for help. L33th4x0r (talk) 19:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Just how rude is the Arabic phrase 'imshi'?
So first the background, on our last day in Jerusalem, my father and I were looking for a taxi outside of the Damascus Gate (שער שחם). One of the vultures (taxi drivers) came up to us and was asking us my dad if he wanted a taxi (he looks very American whereas I can have a somewhat Israeli appearance) and he was saying no in English while I first spoke in Hebrew and said 'לא תודה' (no thank you) and then 'אנחנו לא רוצים דבר' (we don't want a thing (or anything)) finally, when he was still harassing my dad in English, I said to him, 'אני לא רוצה דבר והוא לא רוצה דבר, אנחנו לא רוצים דבר' (I don't want a thing and he doesn't want a thing, we don't want a thing) His reply was 'מה?' (what?) to which I finally snapped "imshi!" and walked by him. The guy walked off and my dad later said that he looked as though he had been slapped.

So I know imshi means "go away", and that's never friendly, but just how unfriendly is this phrase really? I guess it varies from area to area, so maybe I should say, how unfriendly is this phrase to a Levantine, Israeli, or Palestinian Arab? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 19:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't know about vernaculars, but in standard Arabic the basic verb means "to walk, move along, march", and has no particular negative connotations that can be ascertained from the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic. AnonMoos (talk) 09:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * From googlings, spoken, it seems to be considered extremely insulting. Equivalent perhaps to 'shoo!' 'scram!', 'git!', 'fuck off!' mostly apparently used to shoo away animals (usually dogs) or young children.


 * Dogs.


 * Children.


 * See this amusing experience of a clueless tourist: http://kickupthefire.wordpress.com/category/good-deeds/


 * While it may be extremely annoying for you, he was just trying to make a living after all. Also consider the possibility that he may not have been able to understand a single thing you were saying (he did say 'What?'), as I got the impression that he was making the offers in English. --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   13:34, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Trust me mate, he probably got a few clueless tourists before me who probably paid 50% too much for their ride. That's how things work there. He asked me in English and then Hebrew. I may have pronounced דבר (davar) as daber (imperative of talk) by accident, which may have prompted the מה. Frankly, I cannot imagine that any cab driver operating so close to West Jerusalem would not speak Hebrew given the fact that he would also have to transport Israeli Jews from time to time. I can understand him not understanding because of odd pronunciation, but my dad was telling him no thank you and then no repeatedly. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 18:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Daber is not just the imperative but also the bare infinitive of "speak", so אני לא רוצה דבר והוא לא רוצה דבר, אנחנו לא רוצים דבר is a (wrong, but understandable) way of saying "I don't want to speak and he doesn't want to speak; we don't want to speak". I'd also be confused at that, and would not assume you didn't want a ride. (Incidentally, I have no idea what you mean by "West Jerusalem".)&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 18:55, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That was only the last round that I said daber. :p By West Jerusalem I mean that tendency people have to cut the city in half so that they talk about an East and West Jerusalem. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 01:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't make sense of this. You say you were looking for a taxi.  A taxi driver came up and offered you a lift in his taxi.  Why did you want to shoo him away?  Marco polo (talk) 14:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You haven't travelled much I'm guessing (no offence, and apologies if you have, but not used many taxis). :p It's when the guy is waiting for tourists and such and comes up to you that he will try to rip you off. You want to hail a taxi on the street. That is usally the best rule to follow accept at airports or train stations where you should get a taxi at a stand. If someone comes up to you and offers you a taxi ride, even in an official taxi, they are usually going to have some way of ripping you off. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 18:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying. In fact, I am rather well traveled (as I meant to indicate with my nom de plume), but you are right that I generally avoid taxis because I prefer to travel like an average local, and average locals in most places can't afford taxis. (An exception is India, where the local middle class do take auto rickshaws, and since as a Westerner I am obviously at least comparable to the local middle class, I travel like them.) When I do take taxis, I research the local situation first and make sure either that 1) the cab is locally certified or otherwise reputable and equipped with a working meter or 2) if cabs are not regulated or metered but still considered safe, I have a sense of a reasonable fare for the distance I intend to travel and refuse cabbies who want more.  Obviously, I wouldn't take a cab where they are unregulated and considered unsafe, though I tend not to travel to such places. Marco polo (talk) 15:05, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I prefer to walk really or take the sherutim, but I avoid buses (main method of transport) though I know they are safe (basically travel like some locals do), but my dad prefers taxis as he is quite lazy. Oh, they're regulated and for the most part safe (all very clearly marked too, in fact I don't think there are unofficial cabs), but some (by which I mean many) have very unscrupulous practices, such as trying to put a metered rate on you or having other people tell you that there is traffic on the way to a destination and so meter is better (still can't believe I fell for that one THIS year, but that's what I get for speaking English when I mispronounced Carlebach and didn't know where it was in relation to HaHagana Station), which is best avoided by actually knowing how to tell the guy where you want to go in Hebrew (in fact, only once did I know need to tell a driver to turn on the meter when I addressed him in Hebrew, whereas the previous year when I only spoke English, I had to wrestle with them each time until they put the meter on. :p) The only way to figure out the fare ahead of time in Israel is to get this nifty Android app (or take the route already with meter), so I'd be interested to know how you figure out a reasonable fare. :p You do run into some nice cabbies btw, like the ones from America, or this one Haifa fellow who I had to guide to our destination because I knew Tel Aviv well enough by then (now that was funny). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 07:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps they were looking for an official taxi and this was a tout for an unofficial taxi? That could possibly happen in London, if you were waiting for a black cab and minicab drivers started hassling you. In London I would say "no thank you", then if necessary turn my back and engage in conversation with my companions. As a general rule, whenever people are repeatedly trying to sell something you don't want, do your best to ignore them completely. Insulting them doesn't help anyone. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * My total time living in Israel amounts to four months so far, and dating an Israeli for a year. So, I know how to deal with Israeli taxi drivers (most are vultures when it comes to foreigners). :p London (which has nice cabbies in my experience) isn't Jerusalem or Tel Aviv (which tends to have Israeli Jewish cabbies who are no less unscrupulous). You need to be very firm with cabbies, especially in Jerusalem. From what I remembered, in most Arab cultures, you reserve imshi for the most extreme situations (when dealing with an Arab cabbie. For Israeli ones, you just need to loudly assert yourself until he acquiesces or you get another cab (often in cases where the guy won't turn on the meter)). The only taxis in Israel are the official ones (they say מוניתTaxi on their tops) and the sherutim (share taxis, which always work out well), and typically לא תודה or la'a shuukran works, but there's some times where you just have to tell the guy to get lost if he's really persistent.


 * So, any Palestinian Arabs or people very knowledgable of Palestinian Arab culture want to answer the question for me? :p The guy was taken aback, so it must have a stronger conotation in the culture. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 18:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You're in the area, not ask someone local? DuncanHill (talk) 22:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't think to mention that I came back to the United States on 15 August. :p I don't know any Palestinian Arabs in Washington D.C., and many of the ones that go to my uni are, regrettably, not very friendly (from what I have heard; too caught up in politics) to fellows such as myself. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 01:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Fellows who tell them to imshi when offering said fellows a service they want? (Maybe they've heard that fellows like you are not very friendly too, don't tar them all with the same brush based on hearsay. As you're at university, just go to the Arabic department and ask one of the lecturers! I can say that from old soldiers I've talked to who served in Palestine and Egypt that imshi was used by them to mean something like bugger off. As a rule of thumb - when using a language in which you are not fluent, it's amazingly easy to say something really offensive without meaning to. DuncanHill (talk) 07:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You don't go and buy something for 70 USD when you can buy the same thing for 30 USD elsewhere, that's common sense. :p I don't want to be picked out as a tourist (I should have mentioned at the start that we both had our luggage with us so it's obvious we weren't from around there) and then have special metered rates applied when I can get into a cab on the street, speak to the guy in Hebrew and get the meter right off the bat. You gotta actually go there to know what I'm talking about mate. ;) No, I mean there have been violent incidents at times with regard to the political Palestinian students (and I'm not going to, and by fellows like me, I mean blatantly Zionist Jews. Well, that's assuming it has the same deeper meaning in all of the Arab cultures (which have great differences from one another). :p I'm certainly not going to go around asking which professors are Palestinian (would be rather rude). I think we established long ago it means "get lost", but things can have deeper hurtful meanings. This I know, but I did mean to offend the guy ;) (you lose sympathy for the cabbies after about five days, my dad was the same way when he first came to Israel, thinking of them as innocent fellows trying to support themselves, but by the end of the first week, he thought of them all as crooks and robbers).


 * By the way, is it me or has this become more a lecture on how to treat cabbies in a foreign country? :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 07:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I meant, go to the Arabic department, and just ask if imshi is rude in the context in which you used it... you don't have to ask which (if any) professors are Palestinian! From what I do know of Israel and Palestine, choosing to use Hebrew to talk to an Arab when you and he both speak English, and then switching to Arabic to tell him to get lost is asking for more than a hurt look! DuncanHill (talk) 11:18, 10 September 2011 (UTC)