Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 7

= September 7 =

Initialising Mac, Mc and O' surnames
When we refer to someone by their initials alone, it's pretty simple: John F Kennedy becomes JFK, Mary Smith becomes MS, etc.

But when the surname starts out with Mac, Mc or O', we include these in the initialism. Bertha McArthur becomes BMcA, not just BM. Johnny O'Keeffe was JO'K, not just JO.

Since we now regard the Mac, Mc or O' as an intrinsic part of the spelling of the surname, and no longer an indication of "son of", why do we not reduce the capital down to just the first letter, M or O? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  01:17, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Is this a suggestion? Or a request for the actual reason? If it is a suggestion, then we can't really help here - we're just a bunch of editors in a morass of English speakers, with no more say in how the language is written than the next (wo)man. If it is a request for the reason, you may (but unlikely) get lucky and be read by one of the guys who writes the rules of the language. But, English is not French, so it's unlikely such a person exists. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  01:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You may as well say that the Wikipedia Language Ref Desk is the last place anyone should come to for answers to questions on language, since it's unlikely anyone here would know much about language. That is one of the oddest responses I've ever seen here, Kage. It wasn't a suggestion but a request for the actual reason.   --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  03:51, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm drawing a blank on anybody famous enough to warrant initials whose last name begins with any of those critters. Maybe we just (subconsciously?) avoid that situation. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Perhaps the mention of JFK put you off the track.  I'm not talking about notable or famous people, necessarily.  Take an ordinary mundane situation, say an office, and for some internal administrative purpose you have a list of the names of the people who work there, and in some context you list them by initials only.  So, instead of:
 * Walter Brown
 * Jane Cardwell
 * Diane Ferrante
 * James O'Connor
 * Sharon Zappa,


 * you have


 * WB
 * JC
 * DF
 * JO'C
 * SZ.


 * Why isn't James O'Connor shown as just JO? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  03:51, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I might indeed initialize James O'Connor as JO and Sarah McDonald as SM; I've never really thought about it. A reason for doing it your way could be that C and D in these examples are capitalized. Also the syllable after O' and Mac/Mc is usually stressed (with exceptions like McEnroe), unlike most English surnames, which are stressed on the first syllable. The Mac and O' thus are spelled and sound like prefixes to the real name, even though the patronymic meaning is no longer evident. Lesgles (talk) 04:21, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I doubt the pronunciation has much effect on this; I think it's the capital letter that is too tempting to resist including in the initialism. The fact that these M(a)c and O' prefixes are often omitted may have something to do with it too. (By that I mean that both Connor and O'Connor are well known surnames, not that the prefix is optional in the case of any specific individual.) Angr (talk) 06:05, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Here in the UK we have a DJ called Christian O'Connell, who refers to himself as "The OC". No doubt this is modelled on the TV show of the same name, but I think it's quite common in the UK to use the O prefix as part of the initials. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Johnny O'Keefe, early Australian Rock and Roll singer, was known as "J.O.K." (If you were around in 1986, you may recognise this cover of one of his songs by Iggy Pop.)--Shirt58 (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I would presume that JOK was partially chosen to rhyme with "A-OK"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Very interesting point. The Smithsonian and dates TIME date the the expression A-OK back to the early 1960s, when J.O.K. appears to have been at the height of his popularity. Fascinating!  And -- oops -- completely off-topic.--Shirt58 (talk) 11:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * If I take minutes in a meeting, the hypothetical person Xavier O'Leary become XOL, not XO in my notes, and Robert McLean would become RML. I think it is because of the capital letter. Since these notes are just a short hand for myself (I will later type them and do a "replace all" with the full name), I am not following official rules, it just makes it easier for myself later to figure out who I was writing about. --Lgriot (talk) 08:57, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * As others have suggested, there are no formal rules (known to me, at any rate) about the matter - after all, the practice itself (referring to individuals by their initials) is a rather informal - though it's possible that some textbooks or courses concerned with secretarial-type qualifications (though not the one I took) may have suggested a particular approach for consistency.
 * I would suggest that the informal wide adherence to the inclusion of these patronymic prefixes stems from individually applied pragmatism. O'- and Mac/Mc- names are quite common, so using just O or M loses some useful disambiguation from other sorts of names beginning with those letters, while dropping them would cause cognitive dissonance in trying to match initials like D to McD- or O'D-.
 * I used be a bookseller in Scotland, where Mac-/Mc-/M'- are of course particularly common (the last form has become rare, but see for example "J. T. McIntosh" who used it on many of his books). There, dropping the Mc- would have been extremely counterproductive, and in our alphabetical filing of paper business documents and stock records, and shelving of books, we (like some other Scots and UK businesses to my knowledge) used to treat the three variant forms Mac/Mc/M' as a 27th letter of the alphabet immediately preceeding M (authorities such as the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors recommend treating them all as Mac- within M). I suspect that computerisation has made this approach more difficult to apply, as many applications cannot accommodate it and it's difficult to program without catching words like 'machinery.'
 * It would be interesting to know the approach taken in languages which also use matronymic prefixes, such as Scots Gaelic. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.1 (talk) 13:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * With regard to your penultimate sentence, it always used to delight me to see Amazon listing books by Arthur Machen as being by "Arthur MacHen". There are still a few such floating around in their database. Deor (talk) 14:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that author continues to pose me a cataloguing/shelving quandry in regard to my own book collection (which runs to 5 figures). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.1 (talk) 20:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a pretty extensive Machen collection, and I use the method you ascribe to the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, putting the books after McDonald on my shelves. Deor (talk) 03:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This makes a great deal of sense and I think we're getting to the nub of the matter. We can blame the Scots and the Irish. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

JackofOz -- I don't know that Mc or O would be greatly different in this respect from other name prefixes like "von", "van", "de" etc. How would you acronymize Martin van Buren? -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, Jean Claude Van Damme calls himself JCVD. I google that and came up with a list of links to pages about him, and a film with him in it actually called that. --   KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * JCVD is showing his Belgian heritage. A Dutchman would abbreviate it as JCvD. See also Tussenvoegsel for the Dutch/Belgian van, van der, van den, van de, ver, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.110.200 (talk) 23:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, but Mc', Mac' and O' are different. They are all part of a single word (a word that admittedly contains an apostrophe), whereas de, di, della, von, van and other nobiliary particles are separate words.  (Unless they're not, in which case we're dealing with a single word; but one that may contain two capital letters, and maybe even an apostrophe to boot - Edda Dell'Orso.) There's a case for cataloguing a German Hans von Eckhardt under E for Eckhardt, that is, ignoring the von for such purposes, and I suppose he'd be acronymized as HE or maybe HvE, but not HVE.  However, in the issue we're considering, we take a single word (MacDonald) and sometimes treat it as 2 words for acronymization purposes.  But I see now that one might have to become a Scottish cataloguer to really appreciate the true value of this practice. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "Nobiliary particle" is a rather strong misnomer, because many people with names including them never were nobility, and never claimed to be nobility... Anyway, when de becomes d' before a name beginning with a vowel, the result is usually one word with one capital letter.  The capitalizations and word divisions were often much more flexible in earlier centuries... AnonMoos (talk) 02:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

mah nishtanah
Hi, me again trying (and failing) to be aware of other cultures. I have found that mah nishtanah in Hebrew means literally, 'what has changed?'. I have also found out, via your article, that it is sometimes used sarcastically between Jewish persons to mean 'so what else is new?' (to say nothing had changed). Can it also be used or more precisely, would it be recognized by a Jewish person familiar with it, in the sense of 'what's up?' or (en castellano :)) 'qué pasa?', i.e., what's new? 24.92.85.35 (talk) 03:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a "Nitpael" verb (a minor conjugation which is ignored at Modern Hebrew verb conjugation) from the same root as in the name of the Shinui party. AnonMoos (talk) 14:08, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Translation of pietatis causa
In the Penguin Classics edition of Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics ( Revised 1976 and further revised edition 2004) has this sentence as the last in its preface by Hugh Tredennick:

"It may be hoped that Thomson would have given his approval to the revision, which was undertaken largely pietatis causa."

Thomson is listed as the translator on this edition and the earlier editions.

What is the translation of: pietatis causa? Vasilinda (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It basically means "out of respect [for Thomson's legacy/memory]". A first-year Latin student might render it literally "for the sake of piety", but that doesn't really convey much meaning. Deor (talk) 12:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It is mentioned at University of Glasgow Memorial Gates.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 15:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Translation for Spanish text
Hi,

can any one translate to English following text:

"Para que Chile pudiese avanzar más al norte era necesario que existiese una declaratoria oficial de guerra. Y no fue ese país sino Bolivia la que emitió un decreto interno que posteriormente se lo interpretó como una verdadera declaratoria de guerra. Este se publicó el 1º de marzo de ese año de 1879, donde disponía que 'queda cortado todo comercio y comunicación con la República de Chile mientras dure la guerra que ha promovido a Bolivia'. [...] Evidentemente, Daza no tenía interés en provocar la guerra, porque sabía que Bolivia no estaba en condiciones de enfrentar una campaña contra un país muy superior en recursos bélicos y que contaba con una poderosa marina. Pero como un aprendiz de brujo, sus bravuconadas desencadenaron el trágico conflicto que arrastró al Perú y que tuvo como resultado que Bolivia quedase encerrada en sus montañas. En nuestro país se ha tratado de paliar la culpabilidad de Daza tanto en el desencadenamiento del conflicto como su actitud en la guerra. Pero sería conveniente que se revalúe nuestra historia para que las nuevas generaciones tengan una comprensión más cabal de ella"

Thanks in advance, --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 15:29, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Google translate gives a reasonably-understandable translation that should make sense with a little tweaking:

"For Chile could move further north it was necessary that there was a official declaration of war. And it was that country but Bolivia which issued an internal decree subsequently was interpreted as a true declaration of war. This was published on 1 March of that year 1879, which provided that 'is cut all trade and communication with the Republic of Chile for the duration of the war that has been promoted to Bolivia.' [...] Obviously, Daza had no interest in provoking war, because I knew that Bolivia was unable to face a campaign against a country far superior military resources and which had a powerful navy. But as a sorcerer's apprentice, his bravado triggered the tragic conflict that dragged in Peru and Bolivia that resulted locked into their mountains. Our country has tried to alleviate the guilt of Daza both in triggering the conflict and their attitude in the war. But it would be appropriate to reassess our history so that future generations have a better understanding of it"
 * AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I've taken the liberty of tweaking the Google translation:


 * "For Chile to advance further north it was necessary that there was an official declaration of war. And it was none other than Bolivia that issued an internal decree, which subsequently was interpreted as a valid declaration of war. This was published on 1 March of that year, 1879. It provided that 'all trade and communication with the Republic of Chile will remain cut off for the duration of the war that has been waged against Bolivia.' [...] Obviously, Daza had no interest in provoking war, because he knew that Bolivia was unable to face a campaign against a country far superior in military resources and which had a powerful navy. But like a sorcerer's apprentice, his bravado triggered the tragic conflict that dragged in Peru and that left Bolivia landlocked in its mountains. Our country has tried to play down the guilt of Daza both in triggering the conflict and in his attitude in the war. But it would be appropriate to reassess our history so that future generations have a better understanding of it."
 * Marco polo (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you Marco Polo. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 19:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

My minor proofreading of this tweaking:


 * "For Chile to advance farther north, it was necessary that there be an official declaration of war. And it was none other than Bolivia that issued an internal decree, which subsequently was interpreted as a valid declaration of war. This was published on 1 March of that year, 1879. It provided that 'all trade and communication with the Republic of Chile will remain cut off for the duration of the war that has been waged against Bolivia.' [...] Obviously, Daza had no interest in provoking war, because he knew that Bolivia was unable to face a campaign against a country far superior in military resources and which had a powerful navy. But, like a sorcerer's apprentice, his bravado triggered the tragic conflict that dragged in Peru and that left Bolivia landlocked in its mountains. Our country has tried to play down the guilt of Daza, both in triggering the conflict and in his attitude in the war. But it would be more appropriate to reassess our history so that future generations may have a better understanding of it."

Inter change  able | talk to me  22:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Longest place name in South America
Something that's not mentioned in this list. Apparently, this is the only continent not yet covered. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 17:31, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * How about Tacarembo La Tumbe Del Fuego Santa Malipas Zacatecas La Junta Del Sol Y Cruz? [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The Spanish language does not allow much single-word names (I'm guessing the same happens in Portuguese). Perhaps try looking for an indigenous name (Quechua, for example) or in Guyana. Plenty of long separate-word names do exist, but that's difficult to find since most places use their shorter versions ("San Pedro de Tacna" is simply known as "Tacna").-- MarshalN20 | T a l k 02:57, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Saramaccapolder, the name of a place in Wanica District in Suriname, has 15 letters.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The article “Saramacca Polder” spells the name with two words.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Barrancabermeja, the name of a place in Colombia, has 15 letters.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Pindamonhangaba, the name of a place in Brazil, has 15 letters.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 18:37, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Akoelitatajeprati, the name of a place in Suriname, has 17 letters. (See http://www.worldplaces.net/sur/18/akoelitatajeprati/.)
 * Oposeilangahoekoe, the name of a place in Suriname, has 17 letters. (See http://www.places-in-the-world.com/3383379-sr-place-oposeilangahoekoe.html?PHPSESSID=fkvki1oqt9h7hjs5lv133o9b21.)
 * Warnakomoponafaja, the name of a place in Suriname, has 17 letters.
 * Huaynapatacabildo, the name of a place in Peru, has 17 letters. (See http://www.gdacs.org/reports.asp?eventType=EQ&ID=42350&system=asgard&location=PER&alertlevel=Green.)
 * —Wavelength (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Schimmelpenninckstraat, the name of a street in Paramaribo (the capital of Suriname), has 22 letters. (See paragraph 1 of section 6 at http://www.korps-politie-suriname.com/nieuws/nieuwsbronnen%20nationaal/archief%20nieuwsbronnen%20nationaal/2010/2010-05-nieuwsbronnen/2010-05-nieuwsbronnen.htm.)
 * Onafhankelijkheidsplein, the name of a central square in Paramaribo, has 23 letters. (See http://www.lonelyplanet.com/the-guianas/suriname/paramaribo/sights/square/onafhankelijkheidsplein.)
 * —Wavelength (talk) 00:46, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I have added Onafhankelijkheidsplein (23 letters) to "List of long place names".
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:20, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Shetland language or dialect
I have just found Main Page - ShetlandDictionary.com - The Online Shetland Dictionary. (Besides this page with the link in my introductory statement, only one Wikipedia page links to http://sh.shetlanddictionary.com/.) Is Shetland a language or is it a dialect? Is it classified as Celtic or is it classified as Germanic? How many people speak it? I followed the link to Main Page - Shetlopedia - The Shetland Encyclopaedia, and from there I found Shetland Language - Shetlopedia - The Shetland Encyclopaedia, but I did not find a clear answer to any of my three questions. —Wavelength (talk) 21:13, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Browsing through the first of your links, I'd say it looks like a dialect of Scots and is thus a Germanic language. Norn, the language formerly spoken in the Shetlands (and Orkneys), is also a Germanic language, but Norn is a North Germanic language closely related to Nynorsk and Faeroese, while Scots is a West Germanic language closely related to English. Angr (talk) 21:20, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We have an article on it here: Shetlandic. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:22, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That article has a link (in "External links") to the same page linked in my introductory statement, but, for some reason, the article is not listed on the external link search page of my second link.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 22:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The distinction between "language" and "dialect" is always unclear; see Dialect. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 12:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)