Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 15

= April 15 =

Horses; "up for claim"?
What does it mean to put a horse "up for claim"? Thanks.--108.54.27.24 (talk) 02:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * See claiming race. --jpgordon:==( o ) 02:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the referral. I must say after reading that article I am left understanding very little about how it works.--108.54.27.24 (talk) 02:35, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, me too. --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Note that Dreamer (2005 film) features a claim race. StuRat (talk) 16:40, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's my stab at it, since I spend more time than I should at the track in the summer :-)...
 * (Note that the article says "varies by jurisdiction".) Where I live, a claiming race allows someone to stand at the finish line (or near the winner's circle) and buy ("claim") the winning horse for the claiming price -- pretty simple in concept.  So, putting a horse up for claim merely means entering it in such a race, just another way of putting a "For Sale" sign on it.
 * WHY you would do this is somewhat more complicated, though!
 * --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

νέφος - modern or ancient Greek?
Does "νέφος" mean "cloud" in modern Greek, or is it an ancient Greek term? Google Translate says that "cloud" in Greek is "Σύννεφο" ("Sýnnefo"). I've read that Spanish "Nube", German "Nebel", Latin "Nebula" are derived from "νέφος", but am primariy interested because it is claimed to be the origin of the term Nephelometry (medicine).

Side question 1

I then read about the nymph Nephele. νέφος does not contain the "L", but "Nebula" and "Nebel" do, as does the Catalan word for cloud ("Núvol"). When did the "L" enter the word, is there a more ancient form of the word which has the "L" (i.e. "νέφος" lost the "L"), or is there an intermediary Greek word for "cloud" which contains the "L"?

Side question 2

Are the any modern greek cognates to "νέφος"? And other modern words derived from "νέφος" in languages other than those I mentioned? I'm aware of this suite of computer tools. Thanks, --NorwegianBluetalk 09:45, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Nephos is listed in my modern Greek dictionary (ISBN 0-425-17600-2) and my ancient Greek dictionary (Liddell and Scott). Nephele is somewhat of a synonym of Nephos in ancient Greek.  The "l" seems likely to be the result of early Indo-European suffixing to a basic root *nebh- (Niflheim is another cognate possibility). AnonMoos (talk) 11:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding your side question 1: There was also in ancient Greek a common noun νεφέλη (Liddell & Scott entry), which also entered into various compounds, such as νεφεληγερέτα ("cloud-gatherer", an epithet of Zeus) and νεφελοκοκκυγία (Aristophanes' Cloudcuckooland). It's obviously derived from νέφος, but both words occur in Homer, so as far as we know they're equally ancient in Greek. Deor (talk) 11:29, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "Nephos" and "nephele" are both Ancient Greek words for "cloud, mist or fog". Nebula is the Latin cognate, "Nebel" is the German cognate, and "niebo" is the cognate in Slavic languages. None of these come from the Greek, but can be traced back to the proto-European stem *nebh-, which meant "cloud, sky, fog or mist", the main idea being related to "moist". The "l" in some forms is a diminuative suffix. The Catalan word is derived from the Latin word. See here for more: [].


 * The modern Greek "Σύννεφο" is derived from the ancient Greek "nephos". The "Σύν-" is a prefix that means something like "all together in a bunch" in this case. The name of the Roman god "Neptune" is derived from a variant of the same PIE stem. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, everyone! --NorwegianBluetalk 15:09, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Norwegian
In The Holocaust in Norway, there is a photo of a hate graffiti, on windows of a store, owned by Jew. what is written there?, in both right and frontal windows, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.157.36 (talk) 14:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Front: The jew parasite brought the 9th of April upon us (i.e. German invasion)
 * Right: Palestine (calls for? - text incomplete) all jews. We cannot stand them any more in Norway!
 * --NorwegianBluetalk 15:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks.(right window), what is the "Palestina" word for?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.157.36 (talk) 15:34, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * «Palestina» is the Norwegian word for Palestine, or what that "area" or "state" would have been before and during the second world war. -Laniala (talk) 16:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * sure, but, did the writer of the graffiti meant to say: "go to Palestine!" (allegedly: go back to where you came from!)?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.157.36 (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As said above the text is incomplete «Palestina ka... på alle jøder. Vi tåler dem ikk... mer i Norge!»
 * There is no word in Norwegian that is just «ka» (unless you write dialect, but I doubt this was done here), and at least 1089 words begin with «ka», not counting inflections . It might stand for «kan [more words]» (=can), or it might stand for «kaller» (=calls [for]), but this is just guesswork.  «Ikk» is from the context most likely «ikke» (=not).
 * So since the text is incomplete, and unless there happens to be another picture where the rest is shown, interpreting the meaning would just be guesswork, but I would not be surprised if the meaning is what you ask. -Laniala (talk) 17:01, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Some historical context is that Mandatory Palestine was administered by the UK, under the authority of the League of Nations, after it had been liberated from the Ottoman Empire in WWI. The British Government had viewed "with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" until the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine caused them to restrict large-scale Jewish immigration to the territory. By 1936, the Jewish population of Palestine was 370,000 (27% of the total); double what it had been in 1932.
 * Therefore, I suspect that the writer wasn't saying "Go back to where you came from" but "Go where a lot of other Jews have recently gone".
 * If that is the case, "Palestine calls for all Jews" would make some sense. But who knows for sure; analytical thought is not the province of those who daub racist slogans on windows. Alansplodge (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Mandatory Palestine as opposed to Optional Palestine? Angr (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Letter to a Dean (freedom fighter's discount)
Hello there, I am having trouble in writing a letter to my university dean. The university offers "freedom fighter's discount" for students whose father fought in the Bangladesh war of liberation. I never face in writing this type of letter before. So I attempted to write the letters in following ways:

April 15, 2012

Dr. x Jahangir

Professor & Dean

School of Business

ABC University, Bangladesh

Plot 16, Block B

AA Road

Bashundhara R/A, Dhaka-1212, Bangladesh

Subject: Freedom Fighter’s Discount

Dear Sir,

My name is S.M. Nahid Newaz, a former BBA student from ABC University, Bangladesh who is interested in applying for Freedom Fighter’s Discount into your institution's MBA program.

My father, late S.M. Shahnewaz was a freedom fighter who took active part in the Bangladesh liberation war. He fought in sector 11 under the commander Bongo Bir Kader Siddique and suffered several injuries in active war front. I have enclosed Certificates and others necessary documents herewith for your kind consideration

I would be grateful if you could grant me the Freedom Fighter’s Discount for MBA program.

Sincerely yours,

S.M. Nahid Newaz

Are the formats and descriptions in the body in standard form? If not then how can I address the issues in proper way? Thanks in advance--180.234.194.68 (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Looks pretty good to me. Minor comments:


 * 1) Change "who is" to ", and I am".


 * 2) I would put "the" in front of "Freedom Fighters" and "late" and "active" and "MBA program" (last occurrence only), but it might be OK in British English.


 * 3) Change "into your" to "in your".


 * 4) I'd add a comma after "Shahnewaz".


 * 5) I wouldn't capitalize "certificates".


 * 6) I'd leave out the word "herewith".


 * 7) Need a period after "consideration".


 * 8) I suggest you include full names in the letter, rather than abbreviating as "S.M.". StuRat (talk) 21:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * others necessary documents should be other necessary documents. The word other here is an adjective; it takes an explicit plural only when it stands as a pronoun, usually meaning "other persons". —Tamfang (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I missed that one.  Thanks, Tamfang. StuRat (talk) 23:17, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * In number 7, what do you mean by period? what can it be?--180.234.194.68 (talk) 23:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "period" = "full stop" (punctuation). Bielle (talk) 00:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Here it is with all the corrections noted (except for full names, since I don't know them):

Dear Sir,

My name is S.M. Nahid Newaz, a former BBA student from ABC University, Bangladesh, and I am interested in applying for the Freedom Fighter’s Discount in your institution's MBA program.

My father, the late S.M. Shahnewaz, was a freedom fighter who took active part in the Bangladesh liberation war. He fought in sector 11 under the commander Bongo Bir Kader Siddique and suffered several injuries in the active war front. I have enclosed certificates and other necessary documents for your kind consideration.

I would be grateful if you could grant me the Freedom Fighter’s Discount for the MBA program.

Sincerely yours, S.M. Nahid Newaz


 * StuRat (talk) 00:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * One last suggestion, you might want to change "in the active war front" to "at the active war front". StuRat (talk) 18:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

"of" superfluous or no?
Which is preferable? "My dog is too vigorous a chewer" or "My dog is too vigorous of a chewer"? 205.156.136.229 (talk) 23:12, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I believe that the 'of' is superfluous. However, it seems a common inclusion in American English, so I'd hesitate to call it wrong. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. I see no reason for the "of", and I can't make grammatical sense of it. Yet, I know that I've used both versions myself, so I think both are common in US English. So it probably doesn't matter in spoken English in an informal setting, but in writing I would use the version without "of". Duoduoduo (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the "of" is a mix-up with sentences like, "my dog is a hell of a chewer", where the "of" is clearly required. Looie496 (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I will give you a straightforward answer. The version of your sentence without of is preferable.  Including of is a mistake, but a common one in American English.  Marco polo (talk) 01:43, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If it's how everyone speaks, it's not a mistake. It may be American rather than British English, and it's not formal written English. But for colloquial writing it's fine, and for speaking it's normal (at least for GA). — kwami (talk) 03:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It's substandard; educated speakers don't use it. -- Elphion (talk) 03:29, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, no truly educated speakers. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that some people can't compute the direct juxtaposition of, in this case, "vigorous" and "a chewer", so their brain automatically inserts a little linking word, "of". Nevertheless, the original is correct, and the insertion of "of" is an error in grammar. The error seems more common in the US than in the UK, though even over here I see it creeping in. 109.151.38.13 (talk) 11:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, pp.680–1 "of a" says it's "a fairly recent [1943] American idiom that has nearly a fixed form: that or how or too or sometimes as, followed by an adjective, then of a and a noun....the only stricture on it suggested by our evidence is that it is a spoken idiom". jnestorius(talk) 16:22, 16 April 2012 (UTC)