Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 16

= April 16 =

Always Fiddling -- translated into Latin
Perhaps Nero didn't actually fiddle as Rome burned (as there were no fiddles in 1st-century Rome, according to our article), but is it possible to say "fiddle" in Latin? Specifically, I would like to translate the phrase "Forever Fiddling" or possibly "Always the Fiddler" into Latin. In English, I am dealing with a pun linking "playing a fiddle" with the alternate meaning "to tinker with", though I have little hope such a connection would survive translation. I would like the Latin (or faux-Latin) to somewhat resemble the word "Fiddle", such as Semper Fideling. -- ToE 05:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps some contemporary instrument could be used, instead, like the lyre ? StuRat (talk) 05:33, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "Always a string-player" = Semper Fidicen... AnonMoos (talk) 07:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I like it! I am seeking a motto for a boat named "Fiddler" (because the builder constantly fiddled with the design during construction) to reflect the fact that while I don't play the violin, I do constantly tinker with the boat.  Playing with Google Translate, I get Semper Ædificator, Non Semper Fidicen -> "Always a builder, not a bass player ever" which, if true, would be a good approximation of "always  a fiddler (tinkerer/repairer), never a fiddler (string-player)".  I'd appreciate any suggestions for improved clarity, euphony or alliteration. -- ToE 11:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * An "aedificator" is someone who actually builds buildings; the meaning you have in mind would be more expressed by Semper Sarciens Nunquam Fidicen. -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Google Translate doesn't know Sarciens, but wiktionary does. Do I understand the parts of speech correctly?   Semper Sarciens Nunquam Fidicen -> "always fiddling (tinkering/repairing), never a fiddler (string-player)", right? -- ToE 23:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Sarciens is an active participle ("patching, mending, repairing" from infinitive sarcire), fidicen is a noun, but they can be placed in a parallel construction with no problems. Of course, there's no play on words in Latin... AnonMoos (talk) 06:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I would go with Semper Fiddles. If you're going to do fake Latin, you might as well not hold back. As with the old saying, Semper ubi sub ubi. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:50, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * However, Semper Fidicen is real Latin, not fake Latin... AnonMoos (talk) 13:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, except it's obscure. That's OK, if it's what the OP wants. But the OP said faux Latin was also OK. Besides which, Semper Fiddles is funnier. Various potential ideas from the EO writeup. I think I like "Semper Fiddlesticks" better. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You could make other puns on "Fiddler", like "always crabby", in Latin. StuRat (talk) 18:15, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There's cancer, but I don't want to go there. Perhaps Semper Sarciens, Aliquando Irritatur, Nunquam Fidicen. That's a good idea (as when I explain the many meanings of "Fiddler" to those who ask and want to learn more English, I always mention fiddler crabs, and I've not thought of the "crabby" pub before), but perhaps I'll stick with the shorter version, ... except when I'm feeling crabby. -- ToE 00:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Hey, here's another idea: Semper Fiddle-ist, or however you want to spell it. That's nearly a homophone for Semper Fidelis, and pretty much works. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the help, particularly AnonMoos for the Semper Sarciens Nunquam Fidicen. I think that the non-parallel construction works well, as the translation "Always Fiddling, Never a Fiddler" captures the proper spirit. -- ToE 10:50, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Most correct way to say 'Latin is dead' in latin?
What is the best way to say 'Latin is dead' in Latin? 'Latina est mortua', 'latina mortus est', ' Lingua Latina est mortuus', 'lingua latina mortua est' or something else? --CGPGrey (talk) 15:52, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "Latina mortua est", probably. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:12, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Or "Lingua Latina mortua est", if you're worried that people will think you're talking about a Latin woman. See also la:Usor:Iustinus/Translator's Guide. Lesgles (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

you will be amused by this poem from my school-days: '' Latin, Latin, Latin

As dead as dead can be

First it killed the Romans -

Now it's killing me!''--188.6.94.248 (talk) 15:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You can't say Latin is dead in Latin - because to do so would resurrect it. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:39, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

German
There is no way I can prove this is not a homework question, so if you want, you can simply mention how many answers I got right, and which ones they are.
 * Q1. Der Junge hat den ____ Mann gesprochen.
 * a) sitzen b) sitzenden c) sitzende d)sitzendem
 * (My answer: b)
 * Q2. Die ____ Schokolade auf dem Bett gehoren meiner Schwester.
 * a) liegende b) liegenden c) liegendem d)liegender
 * (My answer: a)
 * Q3. Bitte storen Sie nicht das ____ Kind!
 * a) schlafend b) schlafende c) schlafendes d)schlafenden
 * (My answer: b)
 * Q4. Wie komme ich zum Bahnhof? Ich frage die ____ Frau.
 * a) stehend b) stehender c) stehende d)stehenden
 * (My answer: c)
 * Q5. Jeden Tag treffen Studenten von MCC die ____ Leute.
 * a) leidend b) leidende c) leidenden d)leidendem
 * (My answer: c)

Anyone help me out? 223.236.92.151 (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * All correct. Good job! :)-- GoP T C N 15:56, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not a native speaker, but isn't den in the first sentence wrong? I didn't think you could use sprechen to mean "to speak to".  Shouldn't it be dem?  Marco polo (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, den is correct, although using sprechen with an accusative like that seems a bit formal or old-fashioned. More commonly one would say mit dem Mann gesprochen. The answer to Q2 is correct, the question is not. It should be Die auf dem Bett liegende Schokolade. Q4 is also a bit odd unless there is another woman who sitting nearby. The answers are all correct as already said. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, as Schokolade is singular, the verb of Q2 should read gehört. Everything else was already said. --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 19:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Using sprechen with an accusative is quite normal on the telephone, for example "Ich möchte deinen Vater sprechen". I agree that Q2 should be "Die auf dem Bett _____ Schokolade" and that Q4 only makes sense in a context where a woman who is standing is being contrasted with one or more other women who aren't standing. And I agree that the OP's answers are all correct, to the extent the questions make sense. Angr (talk) 21:32, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Making it easier for students: Q1. den ____ Mann, Q2. die ____ Schokolade, Q3. das ____ Kind, Q4. die ____ Frau, Q5. die ____ Leute, would have had the same answers. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Just a comment: None of these sentences is usual German... nobody would express the situations given in this way. --KnightMove (talk) 08:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Comparative in English
I was discussing the comparative in English today, and I realized that I'm not sure what is technically correct (i.e. prescribed). Is it "He is taller than me." or "He is taller than I"? I think it's the latter, but it sounds a little odd. But if that is correct, one could end up with a sentence such as "She is taller than she" which really sounds very wrong. Did I miss the mark here? Thanks, Falconus p t   c 17:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I started writing an answer, then found this article, which is able to articulate it much better than I. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * One problem with "She is taller than she" is that two identical pronouns are used, which will inevitably lead to confusion over which "she" is which. (I suppose pointing at each as you say the corresponding "she" might work.)  But, of course, "She is taller than her" has the same problem. StuRat (talk) 18:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec) To follow-up with a little explanation, the latter is generally agreed to be 'correct' (for some values of 'agreed' and 'correct - grammarians do like a good argument). 'Than' is held to be a conjunction. If it makes it easier to understand, you can add in a second (implied) verb: "He is taller than I am", "She is taller than she is". Like the article says, though, arguments can be made for the other side. So, if I were teaching a non-native speaker, I would probably point out that the more formal 'correct' way to express it is the latter way, but not mark them down for using the former, which is perfectly allowable (even preferred) in informal English. If you find yourself tied in knots with an example like "She is taller than she", it's probably best to make sure the implied verb is put in ("She is taller than she is") or use the classical grammar get-out clause and reformulate the sentence ("She is taller than the other girl"). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:21, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. So basically there are arguments for each, with my latter example ("he is taller than I") being more "accepted".  I'm glad that I wasn't going crazy :-). Falconus p  t   c 19:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, "me" is de facto correct in normal everyday English, regardless of the technical arguments. "He is taller than I" risks sounding pompous and stilted outside of very formal contexts (however, "He is taller than I am" is OK). 109.151.38.13 (talk) 19:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree. The nominative forms without a verb to follow them sound very stilted. So much so that I would not even use them in the most formal prose. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I also agree. I would never say "she is taller than she", at least not in a situation that I can think of; I just wanted to know what is considered "correct".  Falconus p  t   c 21:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Names of planets
It's not an article, but I'm very much interested in it. Many of the Wikipedia articles on the planets simply mention the English name of the planet and provide the backstory. Yet, how can that be considered complete when English isn't the only language? Shouldn't, for instance, information about the Chinese name for Mars be included in the English language article as well? That's what I'm trying to find. I want to find the origins of the names of the planets in various languages. I think Latin-based languages will be trivially different, but languages written in other scripts seem to be missing in the current articles.--99.179.20.157 (talk) 20:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There's Planetary nomenclature, which is quite detailed and also exists in 7 other language versions. Might be a starting point.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  20:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * While there's no question that such info is worthy of Wikipedia, there is a question of whether it belongs in English Wikipedia versus just in the Wikipedia for that language. To me, it comes down to whether people who don't speak the language in question, but do speak English, would be likely to care about the origins of the name for a planet in that language. StuRat (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * In any case, it raises the point that maybe searching 'names of planets' should be rewarded with Planetary nomenclature - I'm leaving for work, but if it's not done by this evening, and I remember, I'll set up the redirect. Or manana, actually - got busy night tonight too. Bum. Adambrowne666 (talk) 20:56, 16 April 2012 (UTC) (actually, done it - never put off till tomorrow...)


 * I just did it too, hmmm, how is that possible ? Oh, I see, you just made the request for a redirect, here: .  That seems like more work than just adding a redirect.  StuRat (talk) 21:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a very misleading redirect, StuRat. See my comment below. Deor (talk) 21:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I did, see my "better than nothing" comment below that. StuRat (talk) 21:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think that it is better than nothing. Someone typing "Names of planets" in the search box will find nothing about names of planets there. Deor (talk) 21:21, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * How about if we redirect to Solar System, instead, which does at least list all the planet names ? StuRat (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Planetary nomenclature deals with the naming of features on planets, not with names of planets themselves. Some information about the names of the planets in other cultures can be found at places like Mars in culture and Venus. More can be found on Wiktionary: See, for example, under "Planet" in the "Translations" table here. Deor (talk) 21:07, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec x 3) We don't normally get into what other languages call our article subjects, or why; that's primarily the job of the other-language versions of those English-language articles, or Wiktionary. But we do have List of country names in various languages (A–C) etc, and maybe some other exceptions.  I'd have no objections to applying that sort of approach to planetary names.  The country-name list just gives the other names, but not how they were derived, and including all that detailed info could make for a rather large and unwieldy article.  But it's worth thinking about.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  21:09, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh well, it's better than nothing. Hopefully some of the people using that search term will be interested in naming conventions within each planetary system. StuRat (talk) 21:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that information about the names of planets and etymologies in other major languages (certainly Chinese would be an example) is within the scope of English Wikipedia and is likely to be of interest to readers. Long lists of translations into every known language, especially when the names are cognate, probably wouldn't be suitable here, and are best handled at Wiktionary. 109.151.38.13 (talk) 21:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The precedent is set by articles such as Names of China and Names of Germany (Category:Country name etymology). See also Names of the days of the week. I think it's too much for the main planet article, but a article like Names of Mars could explain why the planet is Mars in most European languages, but Mirriikh in Arabic, Huǒxīng in Chinese, Maṅgal in Hindi, etc. For now, 99.179..., you might want to look at Wiktionary, e.g. Mars. The Chinese name seems to come from 火 (fire, anger) and 星 (star, planet). Lesgles (talk) 21:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The best place to gather such info together in one place would probably be a Wiktionary "Appendix"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * This ties into days of the week. It's more than just translation. Agreed, no encyclopedic purpose is served by listing cognates of the name "Mars". That is indeed what Wiktionary is for. But once we're dealing with non-cognate names, things get more interesting. Is there any historical connection, for example, between the Sanskrit and Roman names? Who uses the Chinese element names, and how does this tie into their names for the days of the week? Of course, we wouldn't want to include a language if all we know are a list of names, but coherent mythological systems and the connections between them in different cultures is too much to ask of a dictionary. — kwami (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * By the way, in Franz Werfel's science fiction novel "Star of the Unborn", a far-future civilization (which is not Christian) uses Christianized names of the planets (due to intervening historical vicissitudes). So "Mary Magdalene" = Venus, "John the Baptist" = Mars, "Apostle Paul" = Saturn, "John Evangelist" = Mercury, and "Apostle Peter" = Jupiter.  I don't see why most of the relevant facts couldn't be included in a Wiktionary "Appendix" (though obviously not long expository essays). AnonMoos (talk) 10:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There is Classical planet, which has names of five visible planets as well as Sun and Moon in various cultures. --Kusunose 02:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Slightly off topic, but I had a Vietnamese girlfriend in Middle School, and she once told me that their name for the planet Uranus literally means "Sky King."

I agree, it would be nice if English wikipedia listed astronomical names and myths from alternative cultures. For instance, how about a list of constellation names from Chinese, American Indian, Viking, or Celtic mythologies? Right now, only the Egyto-Indo-Babylonian ones (first scientifically classified by Ptolemy in the 2nd Century) are listed here. Pine (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2012 (UTC)