Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 23

= April 23 =

Back on "Christian name : Spruille", & thanks
Hello dear linguists. When I asked (on April 10 th) what the "hereabouts" of the unusual christian name Spruille (from Spruille Braden) might be, I actually failed to write the word "whereabouts", & I meant to translate the french question "Je me demande d'où vient ce prénom, et quel est son contexte ? ". Anyway, though awkwardly asked, my question has been well understood, and brought about an interesting bunch of answers, for whom I thank you all heartily.

BTW, the word "hereabouts" exists, it has a small entry on "Webster's IIId International Dictionary", p. 1058, & it means "in this vicinity"...Forgive my clumsyness, it hides the genuine love for the english language we all share here. T.y. Arapaima (talk) 08:44, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * One small point: you asked the question on April 4, not April 10. If anyone missed it the first time around and wonders what we're talking about, the question is archived at Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 4. Angr (talk) 08:55, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

"Arbeiterklasse" vs. "working class"
While looking through a German vocab list, I came across the warning "Careful: Arbeiterklasse has a much more narrow definition than working-class in English!". However, there wasn't any more clarification, and from the German Wikipedia page the only possible difference I could see, compared to the English (UK) understanding of the word, was that it was defined specifically as a Marxist word. Is there a difference in meaning between the two terms? Smurrayinchester 11:37, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Depending on the context, it can be interpreted as proletariat; see de:Arbeiterklasse. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 12:04, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the difference is not so much linguistic, as depending on political context. German listeners/readers are more used to confronting the term 'working class' in Marxist discourse than many Anglo-Saxons. Likewise, the use of the term 'middle class' in present-day US is radically different from Europe. --Soman (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with the warning. The term working class, at least in US English, has a much narrower definition than Arbeiterklasse in German.  In US English, working class essentially means the lowest-skilled manual workers and maybe their families.  Even skilled blue-collar and pink-collar workers (tradesmen, nurses, etc.) are likely to be labeled "lower middle class" in the United States. By contrast, Arbeiterklasse, like proletariat in Marxist discourse, can encompass everyone who works for a living as an employee; that is, anyone who does not rely mainly on investment income or income gained from running a firm.  The latter, perhaps together with self-employed professionals and small business owners who work for themselves, would be assigned to the category Bürgertum (English bourgeoisie) in German.  Marco polo (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nurses are not usually lower middle class. Not saying they're upper (that would be physicians) but they tend to be at least not-further-specified middle class (middle middle class?).  --Trovatore (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "By contrast, Arbeiterklasse, like proletariat in Marxist discourse, can encompass everyone who works for a living as an employee;" - I disagree with that. The latter is true even for a high-ranking manager, who is certainly not regarded as part of the Arbeiterklasse. In Germany and Austria (and possibly other countries), there is a legal differentiation between Arbeiter and Angestellter, which literally translates as "laborer" and "employee", but possibly relatively best as "blue-collar worker" and "white-collar worker". Angestellte are, at least in common speech, not considered as members of the Arbeiterklasse. --KnightMove (talk) 19:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I stand somewhat corrected, though in Marxist discourse, the important thing is a person's relationship to capital, not what kind of work he or she does or the color of his or her collar. However, if in everyday German Arbeiter means "blue-collar worker", and Arbeiterklasse is the class composed of blue-collar workers, this is still a broader term than working class in US English.  In the United States, skilled blue-collar workers, such as master plumbers or machinists, typically consider themselves and are often considered "middle class". I think British English usage may be more parallel with the German, but even in the British case, I don't think Arbeiterklasse is a more restricted category than British English working class. Marco polo (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * In the UK, some people describe thamselves as "working class" who are anything but, art critic and television presenter Melvin Bragg for one, according to this article. The situation seems to be changing though. This opinion poll says that "When asked to identify their social class, only 24 per cent of people chose to say working class, compared with 67 per cent in the late 1980s." Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Slightly related, I noticed that UK English "Workers" doesn't seem to have the derogative meaning it has in Dutch ("Arbeiders") (which is not German, I know). Every time the word Worker is used in TV series How It's Made, it gets translated as "co-worker" ("Medewerker") or worked around ("Workers then polish the helmet till it's shiny" would be translated "At last, the helmet is polished"). A literal translation would definetely sound offensive. (In contrast, about 50 years ago there were public toilets with seperate entrances for "Workers" and for "Men"). There is no neutral translation of "working class" in Dutch I know of. Joepnl (talk) 22:08, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think it has the meaning you're talking about in US English either. Workers and working class are quite different.  Professionals are workers, but not working class.  --Trovatore (talk) 22:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Adjective form of "working class"
Thanks for the help everyone. One other quick question: what's the German word for the adjective form of working class, as in "He was from a working class family"? "arbeiterklassisch" doesn't appear to be a word, and "proletarisch" seems like it would be too technical for every day use and (if it has the same connotations as it does in English) kind of offensive. Smurrayinchester 13:20, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just use Arbeiter- without klasse: Er stammte aus einer Arbeiterfamilie. --KnightMove (talk) 13:40, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

'Homogeneous' or 'homogenous'?
Which is correct, 'homogeneous' or 'homogenous'? --204.184.214.187 (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Both, see and .  The one with the extra "e" seems to be more prevalent and older in origin by about 220 years, but the one without the extra "e" seems to be sufficiently old and well accepted (150 years or so) to be a reasonable alternative.  -- Jayron  32  14:03, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, both are perfectly acceptable and widely used. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * However, if you want to keep the prescriptivist attack dogs off your back, use "homogeneous", unless you're using the word to mean "having the same genetic structure; exhibiting homogeny". Angr (talk) 15:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Tsigainer by Itzik Manger
Hello! Can anyone tell me where I could read the poem 'Tsigainer' by Itzik Manger? Would anyone be able to provide a translation? I have heard the poem set to gorgeous music by Chava Alberstein in her album 'Yiddish Songs', and would very much like to know the full meaning of the song. Many thanks Luthinya (talk) 16:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The Yiddish text is here (first transliterated and then in the original). The English translation can be found here (scroll down to number 11).--Cam (talk) 01:00, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! Luthinya (talk) 16:37, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

“Von ARD bis ZDF”
What is the meaning of “von ARD bis ZDF”? --84.61.181.19 (talk) 21:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Literally, "from ARD to ZDF". I'd have to see the context to understand exactly what was meant by this phrase, though. Informally, "ARD" is often used to refer to Das Erste, and that's probably the reference here. To say "from Das Erste to ZDF" then probably suggests a very narrow range, since there's practically no difference between those two channels. It's reminiscent of Dorthy Parker's catty remark about Katharine Hepburn "run[ning] the gamut of emotions from A to B". Angr (talk) 21:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This probably needs more context. ARD is the oldest TV channel in Germany, ZDF is the second oldest. Both are state-run, but ARD is a cooperation of individual state broadcasters, while ZDF is organised on the federal level. Both are generally considered quality broadcasters, in particularly as opposed to private channels. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Has this anything to do with “von A bis Z”? --84.61.181.19 (talk) 22:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose it could be used that way jokingly. Angr (talk) 22:10, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Without further context, that's what I'd consider a more likely interpretation. It likely means something like "Covering the whole range of German television", rather like how, at least in English, "From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe" (alphabetically the first and last countries) means "worldwide". Smurrayinchester 22:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact, having Googled "von ARD bis ZDF", I'm almost certain that's what it means. Every result seemed to be using it to mean "All German TV" - for instance, the book Tele-Lexikon von ARD bis ZDF - Was man vom Fernsehen wissen will (TV Encyclopedia from ARD to ZDF - What you want to know about TV, I think). Smurrayinchester 22:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)