Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 5

= April 5 =

French translation
Could someone translate this for me? It is in French. Google translate makes no sense.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

"Paa a Teuruarii était de la lignée royale de Huahine. Roonuiariiatua a Terearii I" Teramana l'adopta lorsqu'il était enfant. Tera- mana Teuruarii I" l'éleva comme son fils et le mit sous le nom de Teuruarii III sur le trône de Rurutu. Paa Teuruarii III avait pour femme Tenapapua qui lui donna un fils, Epatiana a Teuruarii, qui fut le dernier roi de Rurutu. Puis l'île passa sous administration française, et la république remplaça le roi. Une autre tradition donne une liste légèrement différente : la voici. On notera quelle est de deux générations plus courte. Il y manque le n" 1 (Taneuri) et le n° 7 (Teuirataaroa). D'autres noms sont épe- lés différemment et il ya des inversions. 1 . Taneaura 1 1. Matairuatea 2. Taneanea 12. Taaitini 3."


 * Here goes, but it would be nice to know the source (was it from metropolitan France, or Pacific possession with her own patois or creole?) Excuse curly quotes, just trying to distinguish source and object. A couple of Google translate's difficulties will have come from line breaks with a hyphen:

Paa a Teuruarii was from the royal line of Huahine. Roonuiariiatua a Terearii I Teramana adopted him while he was an infant. Teramana Teuruarii I raised him like a son and placed him, under the name of Teuruarii III upon the throne of Rurutu. Paa Teuruarii III had for a wife Tenapapua who gave him a son, Epatiana a Teuruarii, who was the last king of Rurutu. Then the island passed under French administration, and the [French] Republic replaced the king. Another tradition gives a slightly different list: here it is. Note that it is two generations shorter. It omits No. 1 (Taneuri) and No. 7 (Teuirataaroa). Other names are spelled differently and there are reversals of order.
 * The last part is hard to figure out without looking at the source page ( 1 . Taneaura 1 1 . Matairuatea 2. Taneanea 12. Taaitini 3. ) —— Shakescene (talk) 03:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * See also this link from the French stub about Rurutu: http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Fr_Polynesia.html#Rurutu (a very partial genealogy in English). —— Shakescene (talk) 03:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Jzn. (Dutch abbreviation)
I've seen several Dutch names with "Jzn." appended (typically at the end). The WP article Anthonie Cornelis Oudemans says: "He often used the informal patronymic "Jzn" (for Janzoon) in his publications." What the heck is an "informal patronymic" and why does this one turn up so frequently? And is that really what's going on here? -- Elphion (talk) 04:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I know nothing of Dutch, but in this case he was named the same as his grandfather, so "Jan's son" tells you he's his father's son rather than his grandfather. Like "Jr" when s.o. has the same name as his father. Common prob'ly cuz Jean/John/Jan (also Jacob, Joseph, etc.) is a common name. "Informal" because it's not actually his name: His legal name was identical to his grandfather's.


 * If you check out this page, you'll see other such abbreviations, and the bio links tell you who their fathers were: Azn (zoon van Abraham), Bzn (Bernardus), Czn (Cornelis), Fzn (Frederik), Hzn (Hendrikus), Jzn (Jacob), Pzn (Petrus), Wzn (Jan Willem), even Th.Azn (zoon van Thomas Anthony). I don't know if they were all named after their grandfathers – is that a common custom in the Netherlands? — kwami (talk) 07:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * See "patronymic" for the meaning of the term. The patronymic used by Oudemans was probably "informal" in the sense that he was not officially named Janzoon by his parents. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 10:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies, and the reference to Patronymic, which I would not have thought to check. One can, of course, throw "informal" and "patronymic" at each other and cobble together a hunch about what might be going on.  The Dutch section of Patronymic explains that patronymics were the common naming custom until fairly recently in Holland, but what's missing is any indication that the old custom survived as a widespread informal usage (to the extent that it appears even in formal settings) or what purpose it serves.  Are the filial bonds in the Netherlands just stronger than elsewhere, or, e.g., are these perhaps used to distinguish people with otherwise similar names?  And are they still used today? -- Elphion (talk) 06:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * @Kwamikagami: being named after one's grandparent is indeed a custom in the Netherlands (although not as common as it was), I myself am also named after my grandfather. However, the use of Janszoon etc. is independent from this. Before the use of surnames, this was the common (and official) way of identifying someone. The usage decreased after Napoleon made the use of surnames obligatory, but remained somewhat prevalent in the 19th century. It gradually decreased and was not used much in the 20th century. It is now obsolete. Kwamikagami's description of 'informal patronymic' is correct. However, I happen to have two uncles with the same name, and when necessary, they are distinguished using the name of either their wife or father. Sometimes the patronymic is jokingly used here. -- Lindert (talk) 08:16, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Tequila effect
Hello. I want to know an etymology of expression "efecto tequila" or "tequila effect". From spanish forum I found out that it's not a traditional spanish idiom, so may be you can help me. Besides I will need a source of the explanation.--Yourist2 (talk) 10:35, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The Tequila Effect is used to describe the domino effect that triggered economic crises in Brazil, Argentina, and other neighbouring regions in Latin America in 1994. Leading up to the economic crisis which triggered the Tequila Effect was President Carlos Salinas de Gortari’s administration. His government was corrupt, with members of government receiving bribes and appropriating government funds for personal wealth. I guess it was called 'Tequila' as reference to Mexico. See here. Richard Avery (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, right, you want specifically the etymology. I am not sure a clear etymology will appear on any site. But my opinion is that 'Tequila' refers to Mexico (assumed national drink) in the same way that someone might (slightly) humourously refer to the 'Vodka effect' if it had happened in Russia or the 'Scotch effect' if it had happened in Scotland. Newspapers, magazines, they always want a catchy headline, a cute catchy name. Richard Avery (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I heard it is called so because one drink drags another. But unfortunately I can't find source, that can proove it.--Yourist2 (talk) 17:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I saw that suggestion on the Spanish discussion. I understand the term (Tequila Effect) was first coined by an American magazine or paper so it is perhaps unlikely they would have used a reference to a (not very common) Spanish saying. Richard Avery (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Heads of Agreement
I just asked this on the article's talk page, but no-one has posted there for four years, so maybe here....

Why is a Heads of Agreement called a Heads of Agreement? The words don't seem to relate to the meaning much at all. HiLo48 (talk) 11:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I haven't found a cite explaining exactly why they call it that, but the sense I get is that it's analogous what we might call a "heads up". It's a non-binding understanding between two parties of their broad intentions in regard to a certain matter.  It's early advice about where they're heading.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  12:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I've always assumed that "heads" here means "document headings" or "document outline" i.e. it is a list of items on which the two parties aim to reach an agreement, although the full details of the agreement are not yet known. So "heads of agreement" = "agreement headings". Gandalf61 (talk) 13:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the relevant sense of head is that which is recorded as sense 27 in the OED (2nd ed.): "One of the chief points of a discourse; the section of it pertaining to any such point; hence, a point, topic; a main division, section, chapter of a writing; a division of a subject, class, category"—the point being that the document sets forth the general topics or points that will form the basis of the specific details included in the final agreement. Deor (talk) 13:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, thank you, I suspect that's getting closer to the core meaning. It's a use of the word head I don't think I've come across before though. HiLo48 (talk) 05:10, 6 April 2012 (UTC)