Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 7

= April 7 =

Agreeance
Is agreeance a word and if so where is it used and how does its meaning differ from agreement? 112.215.36.178 (talk) 01:33, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Could it be you misheard "a grievance" ? Of course, lawyers, politicians, and businessmen seem to like to use overly complex language to confuse people, so it wouldn't surprise me if they invented this, too. StuRat (talk) 01:39, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There are a fair few Google book hits for "agreeance". There seems to be some suggestion that it is actually an old form, and, indeed, some of the book hits are from the 19th century. calls it "now rare". 86.160.85.108 (talk) 01:49, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Lawyers in particular like to use obsolete words, or even a dead language (Latin). StuRat (talk) 01:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

[OP] Just to clarify, I googled this before I came here to ask the question. It seems that although some dictionaries don't list the word and it is sometimes listed as a common mistake in grammar guides, it is listed as an obsolete word in the OED and it is common in some areas. I'm from Queensland in Australia and although I would never use the word myself, I hear people from other states say it all of the time. In some of the forums that I found throug google searches I found people from various places strenously rejecting the word and others conversely bemoaning the grammatical elitism of not accepting it. I'm interested to know who has heard it used, whether they think it sounds correct and where it is used. There was also some suggestion that the meaning is different from agreement in that it refers to an unwritten pact more than a formal contract. 112.215.36.178 (talk) 02:27, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you saying an "agreement" is always a formal pact ? That's not how I use it. StuRat (talk) 02:31, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

That is not how I use it either, but this was suggested by some other Australian English speakers. I think that assertion is absurd on its face given the existence of phrases like a gentlemen's agreement. 112.215.36.178 (talk) 02:36, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I am in total agreement with that. HiLo48 (talk) 02:37, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The specific instance that prompted me to think of it today was actually not an Australian English speaker at all though. My wife was watching the US American show  Dancing with the Stars and one of the judges said "I'm in agreeance with everyone else up here". Hearing that made me wonder if it is widely used outside of some parts of Australia. 112.215.36.178 (talk) 02:54, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I am from the UK, and to me it sounds ungainly at best. If I heard it used I would probably think it was a mistake, or some sort of misguided attempt at a fancy word, rather than a legitimate use of a "now rare" form. Of course, I could be wrong. 86.160.85.108 (talk) 03:09, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I have never heard it (in the UK) either. A quick Google reveals that someone called Fred Durst of a popular musical ensemble called Limp Bizkit, created a rumpus by using "agreeance" publicly at the 2008 Grammy Awards. This prompted "the North American editor of the Oxford English Dictionary" to spring to his defence.. Alansplodge (talk) 08:00, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

This looks like an example of linguistic change. Whether or not "agreeance" has a legitimate history of existence in the language, if a lot of people are using it now, we might as well consider it to have (re-)entered the language. If the trend stays stable or grows, you can bet it will eventually make it into all of the dictionaries. All words started with someone either making them up or taking them from another language. Evzob (talk) 12:13, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And the "making them up" bit is not always a conscious act of creativity; far from it. Usually it's simply an error, made by someone who assumed such a word already existed.  In their way, the lower education standards and the increased levels of community ignorance we see all around us (despite the instant availability of almost all information) have given people unwitting licence to create a whole pile of words that would probably not otherwise have been created.  This may be a good thing or a terrible thing, depending on your point of view.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  20:48, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Right, it's definitely not always a conscious act of creativity - usually not. But I wouldn't frame it as a result of lower education standards. Compared to the vast majority of history (or even "Modern" history), education standards today are extremely high. It's just that as much as prescriptivists try, you still can't stop language change. Evzob (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Origins of African-American first names
I've just read a news story involving a group of young African-Americans, whose names included DeKendrix, JaMarcus, Latevin, and LaDarius; as far as I'm aware, the use of the De, Ja, La etc. prefixes is a purely African-American phenomenon, and the fondness for 'names of non-western-European origin' also seems particularly common among African-Americans.

Linguistically, are names of this style 'genuinely African' names which have been preserved? This seems unlikely to me, since I've never come across such names in the (southern) parts of Africa where I've lived, or among Black British or Caribbeans. If they are a purely modern phenomenon, how old is it?

(I'd prefer to keep discusison here linguistic; while the social reasons for the phenomenon may be fascinating, I suspect that they would introduce a substantial risk of thread drift). HenryFlower 11:15, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Most sources seem to suggest that this trend is purely African-American, as opposed to a preservation of African culture. The motivation in inventing these names is suggested to be a concious move away from names considered to bring to mind so-called slave names by evoking the African-American culture of the South, and in particular the French heritage of Louisiana and New Orleans - hence the French-sounding 'De' and 'La' prefixes.
 * This paper on 'Naming and Linguistic Africanisms in African American Culture' by Lupenga Mphande of Ohio State University discusses the subject in section 3.6 (Present trends in cultural reconfiguring). The Wikipedia article African-American culture also touches on it, although the statements made are currently un-cited. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:24, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The linked paper argues that the naming pattern identified by Henry Flower is similar in style to African naming practices, implying deep cultural links, not that the names themselves are derived from African names, which names following Henry Flower's pattern generally aren't. The popularity of names on the De-, Ja-, and La- pattern I think is fairly recent, dating back not much further than the 1960s and 1970s. Marco polo (talk) 20:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Is it farfetched to imagine that the form might be influenced/reinforced by awareness of Bantu noun class prefixes? —Tamfang (talk) 00:28, 8 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Not likely, though anything is possible. AFAIK, most slave peoples to come to the U.S. were from West Africa (Modern Senegal, Nigeria, Mali, etc.) wheras Bantu is spoken mostly South/East of there. If I am reading the maps at Niger–Congo languages then most U.S. slave peoples would have spoken languages of the Mande languages family.  Of course, the naming practice didn't arise until the 1960s or so, long after onewould expect such language usages to have died out in the U.S. -- Jayron  32  02:35, 8 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The paper Cucumber Mike linked to above does suggest that there is a substantial Bantu linguistic heritage in the US, and specifically that the prefixes are "similar" to Bantu prefixes in carrying gender implications. On the other hand, the main source for this section is a book called "11,001 Names for your African-American Baby". Whether the similarity is coincidence, heritage, or mock-heritage is unclear. HenryFlower 05:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

All humans have the same grammatical gender in Bantu, unless it's a diminutive or you're indicating that the person is somehow defective, so that's completely off the mark. There were, however, a lot of Congolese taken in the slave trade, so there is Bantu ancestry in the US. (A lot came from the Solomon Islands, too, which you don't hear too much about.) There are a number of African names that have been preserved among the Gullah, but AFAIK there is no connection between that and the recent invention of African-sounding names. And it is invention: people invent new names because they sound beautiful/African, and some of that may occasionally be a modern influence of African names that people have heard, but in general it's purely for aesthetic reasons and people often try for a name no-one has heard before (though, as you've noted, often following set patterns). The results can be quite lovely, though they may stigmatize the person the way "axing" for a job will (though thankfully this is lessening, as the practice becomes more familiar and is even starting to be imitated by whites) and though there are sometimes unfortunate results. — kwami (talk) 07:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Kwami, Solomon Islands talks about the blackbirding that was used to acquire workers for Queensland and Fiji, but says nothing about any slaves taken to the USA. Can you provide more info on this?  Thanks.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  09:58, 8 April 2012 (UTC)


 * As article Blackbirding states, it started in the 1860s with Peruvians, at a time when the United States was preoccupied with the Civil War, and Union states without slavery (California, Oregon) were on the Pacific coast. It seems quite unlikely that Polynesians or Melanesians mixed with U.S. Blacks to any significant degree in the U.S. in the 19th century (though they may have done so with Peruvian blacks in Peru). AnonMoos (talk) 15:37, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

My choice of words was careful: I'm not suggesting that prefixed names reflect a practice inherited via slave ancestors. I'm suggesting that Americans of West African descent are no exception to general ignorance as to the differences between West Africa and the rest of Africa. (I once studied Swahili; I had the only blue eyes in the room, but I'd wager none of my classmates had any more East African ancestry than I.) I'm suggesting that the vague idea "every noun has a prefix, it's an African thing" could conceivably be on some people's mind when coining baby's name. —Tamfang (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

French help: "Unknown control"
Hi! For File:Mali Azawad rebellion fr.svg I would like to know what "unknown control" is (as in we don't know if X rebel group still controls Y). Is it "contrôle inconnue"? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 21:40, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I would say "Sous contrôle inconnu" (contrôle is maculine). On the map "Tuaregs" should read "touaregs" (with an "o" and no capital "T", because it is an adjective.). "Au of 5 avril, 2012" should read "Au 5 avril 2012" ("of" removed, and no comma). Whereas perfectly comprehensible, in my opinion, it is better French to say "Sous contrôle actuel [des rebelles]" and "Précédemment[/Anciennement] sous contrôle [des rebelles]" than "contrôle actuel" and "contrôle ancien". To be shorter we can say "Actuellement contrôlé" and"Précédemment [/Anciennement] contrôlé". — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:57, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback! I'll let the author of the French version know about your suggestions WhisperToMe (talk) 12:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much, AldoSyrt, for that detailed and humbling review of what should be changed. I had translated the new title myself, using my very basic French skills - something I won't try again. :-p And there's no excuse for the "of" typo....whoops. Evzob (talk) 11:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

'Utot' related to 'toot'?
One fairly common word in Tagalog used by Filipinos for the word meaning a fart is 'utot.' Does the etymology of this word trace to the English word 'toot,' meaning the same thing, or is it a coincidence? The pronunciation of both is pretty close (in this poster's ears). 69.243.220.115 (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Parallel onomatopoeia strikes me as more likely. —Tamfang (talk) 00:28, 8 April 2012 (UTC)