Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 August 30

= August 30 =

a or an for words starting with h
For typo correction purposes I'm trying to make a complete list of 'h' words which do not always have 'a' as the indefinite article. i.e. all the words starting with h which are the exceptions to the rule. Even those where both a and an could be acceptable.

So far, words with 'an' as the correct indefinite article
 * starting with 'haug' i.e. 'an haughtily' was incorrect
 * starting with 'haut' i.e. 'an haute couture'
 * starting with 'heir' i.e. 'an heiress'
 * starting with 'hones' i.e. 'an honest'
 * starting with 'hono' i.e. 'an honor'/'an honour'
 * starting with 'hors ' i.e. 'an hors d'oeuvres', but not horse
 * starting with 'hour' i.e. 'an hourly'

Words where both 'a' and 'an' seem to be acceptable
 * starting with 'herb' i.e. 'an herbalist' or 'a herbalist' (an herb in American English, a herb in British English)
 * starting with 'histor' i.e. 'a historic' is normal but 'an historic' is accepted, not similiar histogram
 * starting with 'hosp' i.e. 'a hospitable' is normal but 'an hospitable' is accepted
 * starting with 'hote' i.e. 'a hotel' is normal but 'an hotel' is accepted
 * starting with 'hallu' i.e. 'a hallucination' is normal but 'an hallucination' is accepted but uncommon in modern use
 * starting with 'hara' i.e. 'a harassment' is normal but 'an harassment' is accepted but uncommon in modern use
 * starting with 'hyst' i.e. 'a hysterical' is normal but 'an hysterical' is accepted but uncommon in modern use
 * + humble i.e. 'a humble'or 'an humble' see discussion below
 * + hypothesis i.e. 'a hypothesis' or 'hypothesis'  see discussion below
 * + homage ‘Homage’

Anything missing or incorrect? Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:00, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * As our article a and an says: "The choice of "a" or "an" is determined by phonetic rules rather than by spelling convention". So any rule based on spelling will have to accommodate many specific exceptions. I think "an haughtily" is definitely incorrect, and your "starting with 'hors'" rule works for an hors d'oeurvre, but does not work for a horse. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the exceptions are based on phonetic rules. I've adjusted the 'hors' to 'hors ' above, that was an oversight of horse. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * For me, aside from words that have silent Hs (like "heiress" or "honor" or "honest", as you have listed), I find that I say "an" if the word isn't stressed on the first syllable (so, "a history" but "an historian"). So "haughtily" would never take "an". I imagine the list would be quite different if you accounted for particular dialects/accents. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * [Edit conflict] I agree with Gandalf61. "An haughtily" seems wrong (assuming haughtily is the adverb form of haughty). I have not come across the use of an with hallucination, harassment or hysterical before. Note that both "a historic" and "an historic" seem to be commonly accepted, but I don't think anyone says "An history". What about the very common "an hour"? — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 14:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for hour. I've added it to the options. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:28, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * striked 'an haughtily', on additional checking that just seems incorrect. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keeping a list like this overlooks the simple generalizations:
 * where the letter h is silent, the allomorph selected is always an
 * where the letter h is pronounced /h/ and the first syllable of the word is stressed, the allomorph selected is always a
 * where the letter h is pronounced /h/ and the first syllable of the word is unstressed, either a or an may be used, depending on dialect and personal preference of the writer/speaker.
 * Generalizations 1 and 2 also depend on the writer/speaker's dialect: people who pronounce words like humble and herb with an initial /h/ sound will also say and write "a humble man" and "a herb"; people who pronounce such words without an initial /h/ sound will say and write "an humble man" and "an herb". (Disclaimer 1: in some nonstandard varieties of English, the allomorph an doesn't exist at all, and a is used even before vowel-initial words. Disclaimer 2: in some nonstandard varieties of English, the sound /h/ is dropped in some positions where the standard language requires it, and added in some positions where the standard language omits it; I don't know the extent to which the selection of a vs. an is affected by this.) Angr (talk) 18:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the examples, so 'humble' and 'hypothesis' can be either. I did find 'an humble' used in some recent news media items. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Stress is the key, but Rule 3 is finessed a bit in my dialect: if the word bears primary stress on the second syllable ("hypothesis"), I generally slip into "an"; but if on a later syllable (so that the first syllable is not completely unstressed: "hypothetical"), I stick with "a". -- Elphion (talk) 19:50, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Angr's third rule specifically says it depends on dialect and individual preference - plenty of dialects are going to have more specific rules. I (broadly speaking, an RP speaker) almost always use 'a' if the 'h' isn't silent. The only exception is if the 'h' is only barely pronounced and I'm being a little lazy (I might say "an historian" for instance, but I'm almost dropping the 'h' when I do so - if I'm being careful to enunciate, I would say "a historian" with a definite 'h'). --Tango (talk) 12:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "an historian" is not uncommon. Do you have more? if your being a little lazy would it be 'an habitual'? Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * My third rule says "the first syllable of the word is unstressed", not "...does not bear primary stress". Syllables with secondary stress (and tertiary stress, if you believe in it) are not unstressed. Angr (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Is it really more complicated than "if the H is pronounced, us "a", and if the H isn't pronounced, use "an"? While many dialects will differ on when the initial H is or isn't pronounced, don't most of them follow the trend of using "a" when it is an "an" when it isn't?  -- Jayron  32  14:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't state it that way because I'm not convinced that everyone who says "an historical event" actually drops the /h/ in "historical". Angr (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I do. But true, there are many different dialects of English, so like many other issues, I doubt you will get any sort of agreement on this.  In my dialect, an is only used for articles before vowel sounds regardless of how the word is spelled.  Thus, an historian, an herb, an unforgivable thing, but a hockey stick, a unicycle, etc.  But I suspect you won't find perfect, 100% universal agreement on that.  Have you looked in any relevent style guides or other language experts as to how this is dealt with in formal writing and speaking, which is codified and much more likely to have some expert agreement on?  -- Jayron  32  18:48, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Is "hieress" an elevated "heiress"? It's "an heir/ess", in any case. Bazza (talk) 18:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Good catch 'heiress', Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 00:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Homage can be both also, from Should you write “a homage” or “an homage”?. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:11, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Khud = ?
Hello learned linguists ! Ernest Hemingway uses (twice) in his short story Cross Country Snow (written about 1925) a word khud, meaning I think hillock : "his skis started slipping... ...and he went up and down the billowing khuds". What about that word I didn't find in any dic. ? Thanks a lot beforehand for your answer. Arapaima (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I searched for "khud skiing" and got http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/khud Hindi: "Ravine, precipice" μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I went straight to Wiktionary and found khud. Angr (talk) 18:03, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot μηδείς & Angr. Actually, I was perplexed, since Hemingway describes skiing on small snow bulges, not over rifts (which any way are absent some miles above Montreux...) Arapaima (talk) 08:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Small bulges are called moguls in skiing. StuRat (talk) 07:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Funny, a friend who's been on casting couches has told me that, in Hollywood, moguls usually have small bulges. μηδείς (talk) 16:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Translation: German to English
A discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales (version of 17:25, 30 August 2012) has an external link to an article at [http://t3n.de/news/leistungsschutzrecht-wikipedia-395508/ Leistungsschutzrecht: Wikipedia bald ohne Links? » t3n News]. (The discussion is destined to be archived to User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 113 or User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 114.) Can someone who is fluent in German please translate the external article into English, and post the translation here and also at User talk:Jimbo Wales? —Wavelength (talk) 18:56, 30 August 2012 (UTC) and 18:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Does Google Translate not give you a satisfactory result? I just tried it, and although I don't understand the article that's because of the subject matter, not the language - I understand what it's saying just fine. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC) Nevermind. I just read your comment chez Jimbo - I see why you want an accurate translation. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't speak German natively, but I've studied it for three years, visited Germany and Austria at least once per year, and read German-language comics. So I'm fairly sure I can do a better job at translating it than Google Translate. But if I'm going to do it, it's going to take me at least one day. J I P  &#124; Talk 19:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

"Ni" vs "du" in Swedish
What is the situation with saying ni vs. du in Swedish? I read in a Swedish Donald Duck pocket book that the CEO of a factory owned by Scrooge McDuck addressed Scrooge as du, despite Scrooge being the chief owner and Chairman of the Board of the entire factory. My sister, who spent a year living in Sweden, said that in Sweden, no one says ni to anyone any more, not even to the King. But she's a Finn, and her mother tongue is Finnish. She just happened to spend a year in Sweden. In Finnish, saying te instead of sinä is mostly used for formal address, such as news reporters addressing politicians. (Although I've heard that in the army, everyone says te to everyone, to make it clear they are addressing fellow soldiers and not personal friends.) In German, you basically say Sie instead of du to everyone you aren't personal friends with. In English, the whole point is moot, because no one has said thou to anyone in several centuries. But what is the situation in Swedish? J I P &#124; Talk 19:10, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I hear people say tha and thee most days. Thou isn't archaic everywhere. Warofdreams talk 12:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Your sister's right. No one says 'ni' any more, not even to the king. Incidentally, though, having spoken to 'kungen', I can confirm that you don't say 'du' to him either; you refer to him as 'your majesty' ('ers majestät'): "Vill ers majestät ägg till frukost?" (this is actually what I said to him...) - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And did he? - Ka renjc 21:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He did. He got one, too. By the way, the article Rallette refers to below has reminded me of the correct protocol - I referred to the king as 'your majesty' since I was meeting him for the first time, and offering him service. My colleague, who was with him over a period of a few days and giving him a tour of the event we were at, was able to call him 'the king', as in 'would the king follow me please?'
 * A bit more du/Ni info: I remember my Swedish teacher saying that when growing up he had to address his grandmother with 'Ni'. He was in his 70s, so his grandmother was probably born in the 19th century. (She (the grandmother) also pronounced the third-person plural 'de' as it's written, rather than 'dom' in the accepted modern way. Apparently there is a polite address form of 'du' used in official letters and the like; I'm told that letters from such bodies as Skatteverket address the recipient as 'Du' - capitals obviously being more respectful! - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at the 'your Majesty' form, there - aren't you implicitly using the 'ni' form by using 'ers' for 'your'? AlexTiefling (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe. But it's archaic, so I'd say it's in the same vein as one's implying the familiar form when telling God 'thine is the glory: most people nowadays don't remember the difference - in fact if anything 'thou' and 'thine' seem the more formal forms. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:40, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm, so when they want a shrubbery, what do they do, then? --Trovatore (talk) 22:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They waylay the nearest bunch of knights on a quest of course. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course, we have an article on the subject. My experience is that in Finland, Swedish speakers can fairly often be heard addressing strangers as ni. But that is OR.--Rallette (talk) 07:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The debate about du vs. ni in Swedish was quite hot in the 60's and 70's. Rather than me summarizing, I suggest you read You-reform. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

See tutear, which address many languages. I don't use tú with someone unless I would address him by his first name. I find the use of it in Spanish advertising quite disturbing. I am used to it enough in person that I simply reciprocate when others address me as tú, which is quite common. μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In Italian advertising tu is almost universal, unless the product is specifically aiming for snob appeal. I think the idea is that the advertiser is your "generic friend".  Not a friend you actually know, of course, but a stand-in for the generic element of the class of your friends. --Trovatore (talk) 22:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (I should qualify that a little &mdash; some ads do use voi. But I think those ads are notionally addressing multiple persons, not using the dated-or-regional formal singular voi.) --Trovatore (talk) 22:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC)