Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 December 9

= December 9 =

Minamoto no Yoshitsune = Yoshitsune von Minamoto
Does the term Minamoto no in Minamoto no Yoshitsune roughly translate as "Yoshitsune von Minamoto"? The German article isn't a big help, but my very slight knowledge of Japanese suggests this to me. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 05:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. See Japanese name. Oda Mari (talk) 06:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Very interesting, thanks. μηδείς (talk)
 * But whereas the German von was often followed by the name of the fief, the Japanese historical usage used the clan name, which may have nothing to do with their enfeoffment. Incidentally, the equivalent historical English usage would have been Joe de Bloggs or Joe à Bloggs. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Palace. I noticed that the Japanese names are not necessarily geographic, while the German ones often are. In any case, I think Oda Mari's response is quite helpful. μηδείς (talk) 22:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Middle nickname
How is called the nickname which is placed in quotation marks between a given name and a surname? For example, John "Cool Dude" Smith. When and how did this tradition appear?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think it's just a nickname, and nicknames go back to medieval times in England. Unless you're talking about something more specific? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The nickname is used in place of their first name, in casual settings, while the actual first name is used in formal settings. StuRat (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Nicknames used to be in quotes as standard practice, and typically still are when the real first name is also given. The ballplayer we call Babe Ruth was often referred to in the newspapers as "Babe" Ruth, by itself, no George. That style is not used much anymore, but the style George "Babe" Ruth certainly is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is a formal style of citing the nickname in writing or reporting, not the way it is used in usual speech or at all in conversation, and the order does not imply the name is being used as a middle name. You would call the guy Babe to his face and casually speak of Babe Ruth, but formally refer to George "Babe" Ruth if you wanted to give both his real name and the name he was popularly known by.  You'll find this style in obituaries and crime reports where giving both names to avoid confusion is necessary.  The nickname in such circumstances will also usually be spoken emphasized and at a higher pitch than the first name to contrast the two. μηδείς (talk) 17:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! When did it appear? I thought that it came from modern programmer, teenager, MTV or anything else slang.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

(ec)To clear: I'm speaking about exactly this style - Formal-given-name "Nickname" Surname. I saw this sometimes in the credits of computer games or films, where many of the crew members use this style. I also noticed that in Russia this fashion of representing themselves also has become popular among young teen and twen media persons, I suppose they think it makes their name sound cool, chic, modish or something.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It definitely predates WWII. My guess would be it arose as a convention in late 19th century journalism, or as late as the 1920's, but I am pulling that out of my behind--someone will think of a way to get a source, I hope.  As for being cool, nicknames may be, and implying you have a nickname by citing it may be.  But there's nothing cool about the formulation itself.  My having a business card that said Joseph "Joe" Smith would not in any way be cool, hehe. μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On another hand, your card could say Joseph (Joe) Smith without raising an eyebrow. —Tamfang (talk) 06:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think they're simply parroting this somewhere seen Western naming-style which did not exist in Russian before. And every Western thing is cool, trendy etc. for many, especially when it differs from the surrounding culture.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think in some instances it could also be a pen name, resp. a stage name, see e.g. Prez (= Lester Young). I do not know in what (other) regions or countries it may have legal implications. In Germany until recently it was so that you could have your stage- or pen- name registered, it then would actually appear on your identity card and be "official". You actually had to have published or sold some work under that name for it to qualify as pen name. So for example a football player was not allowed to have their "nickname" on their team jersey, but they were allowed to have their official pen- or stage- name there instead of their real name. German football player Andreas "Zecke" Neuendorf (Zecke in English is tick, the parasite :D ) actually painted some paintings, then sold them under what had been his nickname and thus was able to establish it as his "stage name", so he was able to have "Zecke" replacing Andreas Neuendorf on his team jersey. :) Pardon my German (Fiiiisch!) (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, yes, well, but no. I think Ljuboslov would do better with assuming the X "Y" Z form is a journalistic one dated from Victoria until the 20's. μηδείς (talk) 03:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)`

World War I Canadian flying ace. William Avery "Billy" Bishop, is an early example, although I haven't yet found a contemporary source using that style. Watch this space. Alansplodge (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

English nicknames replacing r with z
I see frequent changes of names like Barry and Darren into Baz or Bazza, Daz or Dazza. When did this first become a "thing" in England? 216.93.234.239 (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This is an extension of the Oxford "-er" (which is also the origin of the abbreviation "soccer" for "association football", amongst other things, a lot of which are now pretty dated.) The article places the "-zza" form as being probably Australian in origin and from the late 20th century, though it's uncited, so not sure if that's true. And it doesn't have to be -r-, by the way - for example Paul Gascoigne → "Gazza". - filelake shoe  &#xF0F6;   13:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps introduced to these shores by the The Adventures of Barry McKenzie film of 1972. I don't remember it in use here (London) before the 1980s. Alansplodge (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't this have something to do with the fact that non-rhotic dialects would have a problem with calling someone "Barr" or "Darr"? And I thought Baz was short for Basil. μηδείς (talk) 02:33, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * A non-rhotic speaker (such as myself) has no difficulty pronouncing "r" when it is necessary. Roger (talk) 11:45, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * But "Barr" and "Darr" are unpronounceable without changing the checked /æ/ of "Barry" and "Darren" into an /ɑː/. (Though they would work, as "bear" and "dare", in prerhotically merged American English.)--Lazar Taxon (talk) 14:29, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not that hard to say Barr or Darr or Garr or Larr, even for non-rhoticists, but it's just not done outside the USA and environs.
 * "Baz" is indeed generally* a shortening of Basil, and without knowing the context, Baz could mean either Basil or Barry. It's also sometimes used by Sebastians.  But "Bazza" specifically refers to Barry.
 * (* But not in the case of Baz Luhrmann. His legal name is Mark Anthony Luhrmann, but his father came up with the nickname "Baz" at an early age, for reasons I've never seen explained.)--   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * If non-rhotic dialects have words cognate to bear and dare, I imagine they can find a way. —Tamfang (talk) 06:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't know if this is responsive, but "s" was changed to "z" in a famous nickname in 19th century England. See, Sketches by Boz (where you will also discover, "M" was changed to "B" because of exaggerated pronunciation.)   Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:52, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I had a high school classmate named Harry who was regularly called /hær/, not /heɪr/ or /har/. My dialect doesn't have the Mary marry merry merger.  But other than shortenings of names like Barry, Larry, and Carrie you won't hear final /ær/. μηδείς (talk) 19:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)