Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 February 21

= February 21 =

French help
"Canonnade des Taiping contre les jonques de guerre des Tsing qui assiégeaient la capital du Royaume céleste" Would that be "Taiping cannon fire against the Qing war junks that are assaulting the royal celestial capital"? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The last part would be "the capital of the Celestial Kingdom". The rest looks fine to me. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Just added a description to File:Naval battle between Taiping-Qing on Yangtze.jpg WhisperToMe (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That "were" assaulting. "Assiégeaient" is in the past tense. Actually, "that were laying siege" may be even more accurate. And it should be "capitale" (with a final e) in the original French. --Xuxl (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"Hand" and "five"
Aside from Toki Pona and perhaps other minimalist constructed languages, is there any language where the words for "hand" and "five" are the same, or morphologically related? - file lake  shoe  01:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The word for "fist" is related to "five" in English, German, Polish, Russian and probably a whole bunch of other IE languages. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right about Polish, but in Russian (and a few other Slavic languages) the word for "fist" is no longer related to "five". The PIE root of "five" is retained in a rarely-used word that means "metacarpus", and there is a rarely-used derivative of the word "five" that means "hand".--Itinerant1 (talk) 04:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * And of course English has the slang "five", as in high five or "give me five". Smurrayinchester 11:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The Hawaiian word lima means both "hand, arm" and "five, fifth" (source: The Pocket Hawaiian Dictionary with a Concise Hawaiian Grammar by Mary Kawena Pukui, Samuel H. Elbert, and Esther T. Mookini (1975), p 89. ISBN 0-8248-0307-8). -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Gee, lima is "five" in Malay too! — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, not an enormous surprise. Malay and Hawaiian are genetically related; ultimately descending from the same proto-language, they both belong to the Austronesian language family :) --Theurgist (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In the Berber languages. e.g. in the dialect of Nafusa mountains (in Libya), it is: ufes, and in the dialect of Djerba (in Tunisia), it is: afus. 77.124.2.244 (talk) 08:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, I knew there must be at least one case of it being the same word. Thanks! - file lake  shoe  13:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember a long time ago, in an English language school in Japan, the American owner used to say 'Gimme five!' and hold his hand up, expecting me to clap it with him, despite the fact that hands (in English) only have four fingers (plus one thumb). I always had to use two hands. KägeTorä - (影虎) ( TALK )  13:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Where did you get the idea we only have 4 fingers on each hand? In general terms, all 5 of the digits are fingers.  The thumb has its own name in certain contexts, that's all.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe KageTora is from The Simpsons - file lake  shoe  21:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As English teachers, it was a common 'joke' we had to teach the names of the fingers. The main four have '[something] finger' as names (we don't use 'pinkie' in Br.Eng), but only the thumb has an entirely unrelated name. In Japanese, all five have '[something] finger' as names, so this is why it was appropriate. I suppose you had to be there....  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * A little finger is sometimes called a pinky or a pinkie, from a word meaning "five".
 * —Wavelength (talk) 21:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the Arabic dialect of Djerba (not to be confused with the Berber dialect of Djerba I've already mentioned above), uses the slang phrase: "(please) count my hand" (being:  'ad-yeddi) - for "five", as well as for "Thursday" (as the fifth day of the week), although it also uses the more standard Arabic word for "five" (being: xamsa). 77.125.106.165 (talk) 01:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the Arabic dialect of Djerba (not to be confused with the Berber dialect of Djerba I've already mentioned above), uses the slang phrase: "(please) count my hand" (being:  'ad-yeddi) - for "five", as well as for "Thursday" (as the fifth day of the week), although it also uses the more standard Arabic word for "five" (being: xamsa). 77.125.106.165 (talk) 01:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This is just an anecdote, but I recall reading—some years ago—that a few primitive tribes in the Amazon rainforest had a numerical system based on 2 (instead of 10, as in modern English).

The thing was, at least one of said tribes, at the time of first contact, was apparently starting to "evolve" to a base-5 system. To wit, they called 3 "one over two—cf. "eleven" from "one over ten"—and they called 4 "two over two"—cf. "twelve" from "two over ten." But, curiously, they (the youngest generation among them, anyway) were increasingly referring to 5 as "my whole hand, all together."

May this be to what the OP is alluding? Pine (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean the Pirahã language? 21:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The Khmer language works in base five, with '6' being 'five-and-one', and so on. I actually use the segments on each finger to count, giving me 12 on each hand, using the thumb to keep count.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly - curiosity which stemmed from a discussion about the origin of number glyphs, and how the glyphs for 1 and 5 often resemble a finger and a part of the hand (such as Roman numerals I and V). So it didn't seem inconceivable that the words hand and five would be the same in one spoken language - file lake  shoe  17:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Per KageTora — "thumb" and "thousand" are related, both deriving from an ancient root (Germanic? Proto-Indo-European?  I can't remember) with the sense of "swelled".  Thus the term is applied to the fattest finger, and fifty times twenty is a swelled hundred.  Nyttend (talk) 02:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

səgg-JEST
Who pronounces the word suggest this way? A dictionary of mine says this is the American pronunciation of the word, while the British is sə-JEST. Is this true? I'd never known it could be anything else than sə-JEST. --Theurgist (talk) 10:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's the standard American pronunciation. I've never noticed it pronounced otherwise by any English speaker from anywhere, though that's probably because I, like most people, hear what I expect to hear. Compare with "success". By the way, I'm from Pennysylvania, studied in California, worked in the Midwest, and have been living for 13 years in Europe, where most native English speakers I come in contact with are not American. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm American, and I agree the standard pronunciation includes the [g] sound, though in rapid speech it can be dropped. Angr (talk) 11:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm an American, and I don't think I'd ordinarily pronounce a velar in either "suggest" or "flaccid" (though obviously there's a velar in "success"). Does anybody pronounce a velar in "exaggerate"? -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a /k/ in flaccid but no /g/ in exaggerate. Does anyone omit the /k/ in accident? Angr (talk) 15:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Angr and Dominus that [g] is standard in American English at the end of the first syllable in suggest, though no doubt some speakers omit it. It never occurs in exaggerate.  I think the pronunciation of flaccid will vary from speaker to speaker, probably because the word isn't spoken very frequently and people who recognize it may recognize it mainly from having read it.  (In everyday speech, most people will say "soft" instead.)  Marco polo (talk) 18:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never pronounced the /k/ in flaccid, and I've never heard anyone doing so. It would sound too close to "flaxen".  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm Canadian and pronounce suggest with a g sound. Linguist Larry Trask wrote the following in his Why do Languages Change?:
 * The usual educated British pronunciations of suggest, ﬁgure, recognise, manufacture and liqueur – ‘sa-JEST’, ‘ﬁgga’, ‘rekanise’, ‘mannafacture’ and ‘li-CURE’ – all sound extremely uneducated to Americans, while the American pronunciation of moths – ending like scythes – sounds hilarious to Britons.
 * I wouldn't be including "recognise" in that list. Anyone, anywhere, who says "rekanise" marks themselves as uneducated and illiterate.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Even the OED1 agrees with you on this, so the pronunciation of recognize with g appears to have been standard for a long time in Britain. It can't always have been this way, because the g was lost in the etymology, which went through the French reconnoistre (now reconnaître). Through Google I've found countless present-day denunciations of the g-less pronunciation, however, so it can't be that uncommon. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Phonetician Windsor Lewis suggests in his blog that our pronunciation of suggest may have been influenced by the spelling:
 * Certain words show GA diversions from presumable former usages that have possibly been influenced at least in part by the inclination to prefer a more satisfactory relationship between sound and spelling in some cases also observable in GB subvariant forms. These include albeit /æl`biɪt/ as well as /ɔl`biɪt/ as in GB, ate /eɪt/ rather than GB /et/˃, Berkeley as /`bɜrkli/ GB /`bɑkli/, brooch /bruːʧ/˂ as well as GB /broʊʧ/, clerk as /klɜrk/ GB /klɑk/, gooseberry GB /gʊzbri/, lieutenant as /lu`tenənt/ GB /lef`tenant/, plait as /pleɪt/˃ (GB /plӕt/), schedule as /`skeʤul/ (GB /`∫edjul/˃), subtile as /`sʌbtəl/˂, suggest with /g/, shone with /oʊ/, nephew as /`nefju/ rather than /`nevju/ (a revision that occurred in GB only in the later 20th century). Revisionary subvariants of these kinds occur in various words eg fortune which beside the common-to-both-varieties type /`fɔʧən/ has GB subvariants /`fɔʧun/ and /`fɔtjun/.
 * In case anybody's wondering, suggérer has a [gʒ] in it in French. This may not mean much, though, because the earliest sources I've found are from the late 19th century. Spelling pronunciations became a major feature of the language in France after 1789 when the bourgeoisie took over from the aristocracy, who were less inclined to such things. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm Canadian and I don't pronounce it with a /g/, but it doesn't sound too bizarre if I say it that way. I'm sure I've heard it, I just never really thought about it before. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Americans don't have a monopoly on spelling pronunciations, though. The British pronunciation of herb with a /h/ is a spelling-based innovation. Angr (talk) 10:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've sometimes wondered about that very word. It looks like perhaps people in England started saying it that way to avoid being accused of being h-droppers. Do you have a published reference for it? 96.46.204.126 (talk) 17:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See and the 2008 Oxford University Press book it cites. Angr (talk) 10:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 19:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

This is just the darndest thing. Are we saying that Americans pronounce "suggest" with a hard "g" like "egg" then followed by a "j" sound like "jam"? Although I am British, I must surely have heard Americans say "suggest" numerous times, yet I have never noticed this and cannot even remotely visualise it. Shows how, as someone mentioned, we hear what we want to hear. 86.176.209.243 (talk) 01:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's precisely what we're saying. And now that you know what to listen for, the next time you hear an American say suggest you'll probably notice the /g/ instantly. Angr (talk) 10:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Unleaded?
In Australia we dropped lead from petrol ("gas" to Americans) long ago, well before many current purchasers of the product were born. What intrigues me is that the most commonly sold version of the fuel is still described as "Unleaded". It's an accurate but a silly name. Does a similar situation exist elsewhere? HiLo48 (talk) 11:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In the UK we still call it "unleaded" and you can still get "4 star" but that is rare. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec) Lead was "dropped" "long ago" only in the sense that unleaded petrol became first available, and then increasing in usage and popularity, so much so that leaded petrol became more and more difficult to purchase. Many older cars running on leaded petrol were still out and about well into the 1990s. It was only in 2002 that leaded petrol was finally phased out, and even then it was recognised that many older cars would not be able to run on unleaded petrol, so the alternative given to them was lead replacement petrol. So until about 2000 it was still necessary to distinguish between "leaded" and "unleaded" petrol, and even today it still makes sense to distinguish between, for example, "unleaded" and "lead replacement" petrol. This page from the federal environment department may give you some information. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Sometimes it is still called "unleaded" in Canada, but everyone normally calls it "regular" (as you can see in this picture. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * For the sake of completeness, it's still called "unleaded" in the US as well. Dismas |(talk) 11:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Not in my part of the US. In Detroit, it's often just labelled by octane, so 85, 87, 89, 91, 93, etc.  If they use words, it's likely something like "economy", "regular", "mid-grade", "premium", and "ultra", etc., with no mention of lead. StuRat (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, so for at least ten years it's been impossible to buy "leaded" in advanced western nations. When will we move on from calling the current major product according to what it isn't? HiLo48 (talk) 11:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe about the time we stop using terms like "glove box" and "dialup". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What's wrong with "glove box" ? My car has a compartment which opens on the dashboard, where I regularly store my gloves.  Seems like a reasonable name for it to me. StuRat (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * With the road maps and the ice scraper? And the jade monkey? Adam Bishop (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I keep my maps (a road atlas, actually) in the trunk, since it's too big for the glove compartment. (When headed into unfamiliar territory I would relocate it to the dashboard.)  I also keep ice removal tools in the trunk, since they are rarely needed (I have a garage) and tend to be dripping wet when put away.  You lost me on the jade monkey reference, I'm afraid. StuRat (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Googling "jade monkey", the most frequent reference seems to be to some sort of scavenger hunt in a Simpsons episode. But given that the show is typically satirizing things, it might refer to something even more obscure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * See also Retronym. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * In Australia's case, because 1) it has not been that long since there was "unleaded" and "leaded", and actually the majority of drivers (say aged 25 and up) will have learnt the distinction at a time when it still had day-to-day relevance; and 2) as I said above, it still makes sense to distinguish between unleaded and lead replacement petrol. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Retronym is hardly helpful as this is the exact opposite of a retronym. A retronym is a new word that's been coined because technology (or sociological development) has created a new distinction where formerly there was none, but this is a case where a distinction that was formerly made (leaded vs. unleaded gasoline/petrol) has ceased to be made (not completely, but largely). But how widespread is the term "unleaded" really? I think in common speech people still say gasoline/petrol (who would say "I'm almost out of unleaded" rather than "I'm almost out of gas/petrol"?). "Unleaded" probably still appears on signs at gas stations, but there it may well be legally regulated. And even so, I think "unleaded" is often deemphasized: I'm sure I've seen gas stations where the pumps are labeled " Regular unleaded " and " Premium unleaded " for the high-octane variety. Angr (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Reminds me of old records that say "In full stereophonic sound !". Nobody much bothers mentioning that new music is in stereo, anymore. StuRat (talk) 22:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Leaded is still currently available in the U.S. - in the form of avgas for small airplanes. Rmhermen (talk) 01:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * All gas stations sell only unleaded fuel in Hungary now, and this has been going on for so long that none of them actually write “unleaded” anywhere. However, the traffic sign that directs people to gas stations is still the one that historically used to stand for gas stations selling unleaded fuel (as well as leaded ones).  This sign shows two gas pumps, one black and one green, the green standing for unleaded fuel, similar to the figure shown.  This is unusual because traffic signs rarely have figures drawn in green (green background does occur).
 * While the fuel isn't labeled unleaded anymore, similar redundant labels are used for marketing many other products. One example is that most advertisments for cars list ABS among the “extras” of a car, despite that all new cars are now sold with ABS.  &#x2013; b_jonas 10:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that ABS is required in all new cars sold in the world. At least our article seems to say it isn't required in the U.S., for instance. Article may be out-of-date, though. Rmhermen (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Even worse is companies like HBF Health Fund, which call their optional non-hospital cover "Essentials". And just in case you thought that "essential" was an absolute term, they also offer "standard", "extra" and "premium Essentials"! Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In Canada in the 1980s it was called "regular unleaded". I haven't paid attention since then.96.46.204.126 (talk) 19:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't even know if the fuel pumps in the US even say "unleaded" anymore. If they do, I've stopped noticing. I do remember being aware that they continued to say "UNLEADED" well after leaded gas was phased out. I certainly haven't heard anyone talking about unleaded gas for a long time, as I haven't seen leaded gas sold since the late 80s, I think. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

What is the word to describe...
What is the word to describe the redundant repetition of a word after an acronym. Eg "LCD display" -> "Liquid Crystal Display Display"? -- SGBailey (talk) 14:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * RAS syndrome --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Something similar sometimes happens in names including words from more than one language "The La Brea Tar Pits" etc... AnonMoos (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * See List of tautological place names.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that part of it is in intials (which are not an acronym unles they spell a word), stops it from simply being tautology. Gurumaister (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This reminds me of how Los Angeles is usually called "L.A.", even though the "L." is just short for "los", meaning "the". I seem to remember that it is sometimes (at least in Finnish) just called "Los", which would mean a city named "The", but apparently people who use this name are unaware of this (at least Finns would be, as Finnish lacks explicitly written articles). J I P &#124; Talk 20:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Speaking of which, the field used by that ball club that plays down near Disneyland, fully translated, could read "The The Angels Angels of Ana Home home." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't get why so many people are against such repetitions. Many acronyms have several meanings, and very often such a repetition is the best way to disambiguate.  &#x2013; b_jonas 10:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The best way to disambiguate is to simply not use the acronym. Eg refer to a "liquid crystal display" instead of "LCD" or "LCD display". (An "LCD display" could be several LCDs on display at a trade show display or in a display window.) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * These would once have been tautologous, but (at least for some people) are no longer. It is an example of the etymological fallacy to argue that because the "D" of "LCD" was originally the initial of "display" therefore the phrase "LCD display" is tautologous. "LCD" is now a word that can qualify "display". The fact that it may also be used without "display" is irrelevant: "television" and "television set" (or "television receiver") both exist.


 * "Would you like to enter your PIN number!!!   And for me what is almost as bad, or possibly worse, is the use of acronyms, often on radio or TV, followed by an explanation of the acronym. Common in the UK at present is 'NEETs', young people who are Not in Employment, Education or Training. Either use the acronym and shut up, or better, don't use the acronym. (climbs down from soapbox) Richard Avery (talk) 19:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * They could be legitimately trying to educate the audience, but, more often, I think they are trying to sound hip by showing off their latest buzz-word. I find it particularly annoying when managers at work try to convince everyone they are experts at management by using such stupid terms.  The pointy-haired boss would be proud (or should I say the PHB ?).  StuRat (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know if this is still true (or even if it ever was), but I used to hear that Rachel Ray would use the term "EVOO" and then always remind the audience that it means "Extra-Virgin Olive Oil". Regarding "PIN", the problem might be that "pin" is a real word, and if you say "enter your PIN", some Lena or Ole might try to insert an actual pin into the machine (or, if they're in the south, an "ink pin" [i.e. "pen"]). So that one's easy to explain away. But it doesn't explain "ATM machine" and such as that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Pin-pen merger
 * I think the problem is that people don't want everything to be acronyms, as this causes problems with those who are unfamiliar with the terms. If you have no idea what an ATM is, then "I'm going to the ATM machine" makes far more sense than "I'm going to the ATM".  This also applies if you vaguely know what the acronym is, but need a bit of a reminder, or, as mentioned previously, if the acronym has multiple meanings. StuRat (talk) 22:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * You could just call it the teller machine (how often do you hear of a manual teller machine?). Mitch Ames (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * And if it comes with a pen for filling out deposit slips, you could call it a Penn and Teller machine. StuRat (talk) 07:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

The description I have sometimes used is deprecated by the Department of Redundancy Department. Looie496 (talk) 19:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)