Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 February 25

= February 25 =

Definition of "milestone"
I noticed that in Wikipedia's article 84th Academy Awards there is a section “Records and milestones” including items like “Christopher Plummer, at the age of 82, becomes the fourth oldest nominee for Best Supporting Actor.” That struck me as not a milestone, so I deleted it but was reverted. I always thought that a milestone had to be a round number. For example, Kobe Bryant getting his 25,000th career point was a milestone, right? But getting his 28,597th career point — thus passing Shaquille O'Neal on the list of National Basketball Association career scoring leaders — was that a milestone? If not, what do you call it? If Christopher Plummer becoming the fourth oldest nominee for Best Supporting Actor is a milestone, then isn't every Oscar nomination a milestone? Because they are all somewhere on the list of nominees by age. Cinematical (talk) 06:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * yeah. somebody messed up. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No ... nobody "messed up". See my comments below.  Thanks.   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC))


 * It doesn't need to be a round number, but it does need to be some recognised important point or stage along the way to a greater goal. So, for example, if a player wanted to become the world champion point scorer, they'd have a series of milestones to tick off along the way. One of these would be passing Kobe Bryant's record, whatever it is by that stage.  Then they'd need to surpass, in turn, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Karl Malone and Kareen Abdul-Jabbar.  That's personal milestones.  But for the game in general, the milesones would have been more like the first player to score 10,000, the first to score 15,000 etc etc.
 * I agree with you that Christopher Plummer's claim is not a milestone, nor is it a record. It is just a reference to the fact that he happens to be the 4th oldest nominee.  But so what! - that's not something people talk about in bars.  The oldest, now you're talking.  But even that would not be a milestone, although it would be a record of sorts.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  07:44, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that Time magazine's 'Milestones' frequently were deaths; some other publications use 'Passages'. Dru of Id (talk) 12:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree with much of the above. On two main points.  First of all — in the world of Wikipedia — a "milestone" is whatever a reliable source says that a milestone is ... and not what we editors at Wikipedia say that it is.  Second of all — in the general (not the Wikipedia) populace — I believe that being in the "Top Ten" is generally accepted as a notable record or a notable milestone (or whatever semantics you want to use).  (In fact, the phrase "top ten" is an extremely common phrase that is very often invoked for a wide variety of situations.)  So, saying that "Christopher Plummer is the fourth oldest (blah blah blah)" is the same exact thing as saying that "Christopher Plummer ranks in the Top Ten (blah blah blah)".  The former delineates with more specificity (i.e., Plummer ranks number 4 in the Top Ten), while the latter is more generalized (i.e., Plummer ranks somewhere within the Top Ten).  So, yes, I believe that ranking in the Top Ten is, generally speaking, a universally accepted milestone, in common parlance.  With all that being said ... in the world of Wikipedia ... regardless, it does not matter what you think or what I think, but rather what reliable sources think (as to the definition of a milestone).  Most reliable sources agree that "Top Ten" (of whatever issue is under discussion) is a notable milestone.  And that stands true in the case of Academy Award age-related achievements.  Thanks.   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC))


 * Also, to Cinematical ... to address your specific question. You asked: "If Christopher Plummer becoming the fourth oldest nominee for Best Supporting Actor is a milestone, then isn't every Oscar nomination a milestone? Because they are all somewhere on the list of nominees by age."  To your specific question, I would answer as follows.  Plummer's Oscar nomination is a milestone, yes ... however, every single (other) Oscar nomination is not a milestone, no.  In other words, if someone's nomination places him in the Top Ten, then, yes, that is indeed a milestone.  If someone's nomination does not place him in the Top Ten, then, no, that is not a milestone.  So, Plummer's ranking number four in (oldest) age is a milestone to the extent that it ranks him in the Top Ten.  If (hypothetically), Jack Nicholson ranked number 41 in (oldest) age, then that would not place him in the Top Ten, and that would not constitute a notable milestone.  So, in essence, it is a "record" if you are first or last (highest or lowest) ... and it is a notable milestone if you are in the Top Ten.  All others are not records, not milestones, and not notable (as far as age-related accomplishments).  Clearly, winning the Oscar is notable, however, in and of itself ... as is the fact of the nomination itself.  But, no, every Oscar nomination is not a milestone ... just the "significant" ones that are delineated within a generally accepted cut-off point (i.e., the Top Ten).  So, just being "somewhere (i.e., anywhere) on the list" is not a milestone ... but being in a specific notable portion of the list (e.g., the highest, the lowest, the Top Ten, etc.) is a milestone.  That's my two cents on this issue.  And, again, for Wikipedia purposes ... any notability (of a record or milestone) derives from reliable sources, not from my opinion above.  Thanks.   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:28, 26 February 2012 (UTC))


 * Contra to Joseph: If we recorded everything that the outside world described as a "milestone" or a "landmark event", we'd have an exceedingly long list. Just about every new TV show or movie that comes out these days is given one or other of these epithets by some "renowned critic".  No, we have to decide for ourselves what is a milestone in relation to any given subject, and not be slaves to the winds (read hot air) of the marketers.  You talk of the Top Ten almost as if it had some sort of sacred significance.  Would Myron Bloggs being the tenth youngest person to be nominated for Best Make-up be worthy of recording?  Really?  Just because he scraped in to the mythical "Top Ten"?  While Mervyn Blinks being the eleventh youngest is sadly not worthy of mention because he didn't make the cut?  You can see how artificial, vapid and shallow these constructs can be.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, becoming the fourth oldest nominee for Best Supporting Actor cannot possibly be construed as a "milestone". 81.159.110.25 (talk) 21:13, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Spadara managed to edit-war this bit of trivia into the article, although it no longer says "milestone". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:07, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Seu
How is this Latin word transcribed in the IPA? Thanks. 68.54.4.162 (talk) 09:03, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say it was /'seu/. The vowels are short, I believe.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  09:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

−
 * There are three different ways to pronounce it that I know of: just like it's spelled in Latin /seu/, or more of a diphthong /sew/, or with just one vowel, /su/, which may just be a lazy modern way of pronouncing it. In the latter case it could also be diphthongized so there would be a fourth possibility, /suw/. The vowels are short as KageTora says, but the pronunciation may depend on where you see it. If it's in poetry and the meter requires one syllable in that spot, or two, then you know how it was intended to be pronounced. Originally it's just shorter version of "sive", which is always two syllables. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Hebrew language help requested
Hi all. Hebrew help requested for the article Yehuda Getz. Reb Yehuda's name in Hebrew, to start with? --Shirt58 (talk) 12:01, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * יהודה מאיר גץ
 * Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 12:07, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * מזל טוב, Seb az86556. The "he:מאיר יהודה גץ" link is there, but I was hoping for refs in Hebrew. --Shirt58 (talk) 13:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Japanese names for Korean cities
I'm searching for a list, as complete as possible, of historical Japanese names for Korean cities (Korea was under Japanese rule from 1910 to 1945). I'd also love to find such lists for other areas occupied/annexed by Japan before and during WWII. For example Singapore was renamed Shōnantō (昭南島), Batavia was renamed Jakarta (but probably this was done by Indonesian nationalists). --151.41.163.244 (talk) 12:55, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * A lot of them were just the traditional Chinese characters for the place names pronounced in a Japanese way... AnonMoos (talk) 17:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * But Japanese has multiple readings for Chinese characters, some of them ad hoc for toponyms or proper names. --151.41.163.244 (talk) 18:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Is there a name for this grammatical error?
I saw an error in a DYK the other day and posted it about it at this page. I thought this might be an example of a dangling modifier but I was told it's not and after reading the page on that, I really don't know. I was wondering if there is a name for this grammatical error. I guess I'll repeat what the DYK was and what I said about it. The entry, which is now fixed, was:
 * "... that Alison Quinn (pictured) was an Australian Paralympic athletics competitor who began in gymnastics to improve her coordination and symmetry?"

The word "Began" in the sentence results in two completely logical meanings for the sentence with very different meanings (I therefore thought "began" was a "modifier"):
 * ...that she took up gymnastics because she thought it would improve her coordination and symmetry; or
 * ...that after she took up gymnastics her coordination and symmetry began to improve.

So is there a name for this error?--108.54.19.166 (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not a grammatical error, but a logical error. An equivocation, to be specific. And the problem is not with began, but with "to", which can serve two functions.


 * The equivocation is:


 * Began to improve = began in order to improve...


 * Began to improve = began improving...


 * The word order (placement of the phrase "in gymnastics" strongly favors the first interpretation. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:24, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

When did English lose verb endings?
All the languages English borrowed most heavily from - German, French, Latin, Old Norse - have some sort of suffix that is appended to verbs in the infinitive. In fact, as far as I know, English is unique among European languages in that there is nothing that indicates "this is a verb". run, ski, walk and drive have nothing in common, and their verb forms are all also totally valid nouns without modification, for instance. It looks from our article on Old English grammar that there used to be verb endings in English ("-an", right?), but I can't find any mention of where it went in Old English, Middle English, English verbs or History of the English language! So, what happened to the verb ending - when did the infinitive become the bare form? Smurrayinchester 17:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Early middle English, approximately... AnonMoos (talk) 17:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Late middle English, I would say. Chaucer still had the infinitive ending, if I recall correctly.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  17:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The ending was already dying when Chaucer composed the Canterbury tales shortly before 1400. He uses the infinitive of "to seek" twice in the prologue: once with an ending, and once without. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello, here are some sources on endings in Old English that you might find helpful: http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/engl401/lessons/inflect.htm http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/changlang/activities/syn/inflections.html http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/fajardo/teaching/eng520/oldeng.htm

Need Arabic script
I created Abu al-Abbas al-Nabati, based on Ibn al-Baitar. al-Baitar's article has his name in Arabic script. I can't find al-Nabati's name in Arabic script for his article. Can someone put that into his article? Thank you. 512bits (talk) 20:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Snarfed it from Arabic Wikipedia (however, أبو العباس النباتي appears to redirect to ابن الرومية there). By the way, "Abu al-Abbas" would not really abbreviate to "Abu" in Arabic conventions... AnonMoos (talk) 21:03, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you.512bits (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Identifying the language, and translating the lyrics, of the song Ramaya
This is a follow-up from a question from the Entertainment desk. User 87.68.248.245 asked for help in identifying and translating a song, which I from the lyrics given identified as Ramaya, by Afric Simone. Afric Simone was born in Brazil and later moved to Mozambique, which is compatible with 87.68.248.245's assertion that the performer was Brazilian. The lyrics, however, are definitely not in Portugese. Here is a lyrics site. Googling individual words of the lyrics only returns links to pages reproducing the same lyrics. I tried identifying the language with google translate without success. The article about Afric Simone says that he performes in Swahili, mixed with a few words from other languages. Google translate was unable to make any sense of the lyrics in Swahili. I first heard the song in Sri Lanka, around 1975. The musicians there, said that the song was about a mythical, heroic character. I later assumed that they referred to the Ramayan myth (the article about the song says the song should not be confused with Ramayan...). Maybe someone here at the Language Desk is able to identify the language, and even provide a translation?

Youtube link

--NorwegianBluetalk 20:18, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Afric Simone is from Maputo, in the south of Mozambique, and AFAIK Swahili is mostly spoken in the northern parts of the country. The language sounds African, so maybe it's Ronga or Tsonga, which are spoken around Maputo. 109.97.148.139 (talk) 23:13, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Difficult, this one. I tried googling the potentially informative words, targeting the search with site:wikipedia.org and then site:wiktionary.org, with some, but limited success. Here's what I found, relevant hits in bold:
 * Abantu Wiktionary: means people in Zulu. rw.wikipedia.org, redirect, redlink to umuntu (which wiktionary says is singular of abantu). Our article Bantu peoples confirms that abantu means the people or humans (same word as bantu).
 * Aricki - No Wikipedia or Wiktionary hits.
 * Bara - Wiktionary: Swahili: mainland, continent. Wikipedia: various meanings in different lanuages, not informative.
 * Bitonga - Wiktionary nothing. Gets a hit in the Portugese Wikipedia, and according to that page is a Bantu Language Spoken by approximately 200 000 people in the province of Inhambane, Mocambique.
 * Bokuko - Wiktionary nothing. Only Wikipedia hits refer to a location in South Korea (Bokuko-Ko).
 * Chilungati - No Wikipedia or Wiktionary hits.
 * Chira - Wiktionary nothing. Various hits in different lanuages, none informative.
 * Gipelile - No Wikipedia or Wiktionary hits.
 * Jamboji - Wiktionary nothing. One hit on the French Wikipedia. Further googling suggests it may be related to the Bishnoi (followers of Indian Guru Jamboji of the 15th century), Jamboji being a variation on Jambheshwar.
 * Kewana, Wiktionary nothing relevant. Wikipedia: Village in Bhutan, South African surname and given name. Also a hit in the Urban Dictionary..
 * Miranda Wiktionary nothing relevant. Wikipedia: Given name, surname, name of various places including a moon of Uranus.
 * Mitumbala - Wikipedia: Odette Kalinda Mitumbala Odya, Politician from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Wiktionary: Mitumba (without the terminal -la) in parts of Africa means second-hand clothing.
 * Mulangati - No Wikipedia or Wiktionary hits.
 * Mutuana - No Wikipedia or Wiktionary hits.
 * Tatana - Wiktionary: means "father" in Xitsonga = Tsonga. Wikipedia: Name of 2005 film from Mozambique, in IMDb translated as "He must follow his destiny".
 * Tumbala - Wikipedia: Mexican village. No relevant Wiktionary hits.
 * So we have the words abantu = "people" (Zulu), Bara = "mainland/continent" (Swahili), Bitonga = a Bantu language, Tatana = "father" in Tsonga. Not enough to make any sense of the lyrics, but enough to suggest that there is in fact a meaning, that it is written in a Bantu language, and that it's not just a collection of nonsense words. OP 87.68.248.245 notes that the Italian Wikipedia it:Ramaya claims that it's in Swahili (with a "citation" needed tag), and that the word "Ramaya" is a woman's name. A google translation of the relevant sentence is: "The text is that of a normal love song dedicated to a beautiful African girl named Ramaya, real or imaginary, beloved by the author, by the end of verse which says goodbye with the hope of good luck fidjuballa." I've no idea what that last word might mean, in whatever language. 19:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC) --NorwegianBluetalk 14:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

This page purports to contain a translation of the song Hafanana by the same artist into Russian. Although the translation is listed under "Swahili", this is likely because the website didn't allow the correct classification. The author of the translation writes that the singer sings in "Shangana", which appears to be another name for the Tsonga language. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Interesting! Google Translate automatically recognizes the lyrics of Hafanana as Swahili, although it appears that the only word that triggers the recognition is "hafanana" = "not like", all other words are untranslated. Also, I'm unable to find any words in common between the two songs, that would have confirmed that they were indeed written in the same language. --NorwegianBluetalk 21:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Ysgol
In Welsh, this seems to mean both school and ladder. Why is that?--92.29.192.13 (talk) 20:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Presumably the borrowed forms of Latin schola and scalae came to have the same pronunciation... AnonMoos (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's exactly right. They were still distinct in Middle Welsh, as (using modern orthography) ysgol 'school' vs. ysgawl 'ladder'. Latin ŏ became Welsh o, while Latin ā became Welsh aw, which later became o except in monosyllabic words (e.g. caws 'cheese' < cāseus shows aw retained in Modern Welsh). It's actually an interesting bit of evidence as to how old the Latin loanwords in Welsh are, because in the Vulgar Latin that the Romance languages are descended from, Latin ā and ă have merged completely, but in Welsh loanwords, they're still distinct. Angr (talk) 10:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

A couple of grammar/ style questions
I've written something along the (grammatical) lines of "Underlining the need for health care reform is the amount of time people spend on waiting lists." Then, having thought it sounded just fine, I suddenly reversed the sentence. I doubt we would say "The amount of time people spend on waiting lists is underlining the need for health care reform." So does that make it wrong when the "dependent" part of the sentence is placed first? Is there another way of putting this part at the top? If my first version is actually correct, is there a name for the construction, or the phenomenon of being able to splice a sentence up that doesn't work in it's natural order? I'm calling the second version, which I assume doesn't work, the "natural" order. I know we could say "...waiting lists underlines the need for health care reform," but then the first version, "Underlining...," isn't a reordering of the sentence.

Another (totally separate) question: I wrote "Two things stand out in this context, thing one and thing two." I was told it had to be "Two things stand out in this context: thing one; and thing two." Is this needed? Thanks in advance. IBE (talk) 21:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding your first question: the first sentence you listed is similar to a pseudocleft sentence. The best way to return it to "natural" order, is, as you pointed out, "the amount of time people spend on waiting lists underlines the need for health care reform". This is not, as you assumed, a bad reordering of the sentence; the is in your first sentence is not the progressive is (BE + ing), it's part of the cleft structure, so there's no reason to use progressive is in the "natural" sentence. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding your second question, I would say that these alternatives represent two different styles of punctuation, either of which are perfectly correct in themselves. However, any extended piece of writing should ideally (except for purposes of deliberate artistic contrast) maintain a single consistent punctuation style, so the "more correct" alternative would be the one that was consistent with the style of the rest of the piece. The second alternative is the more formal, and deploys subtle structure in its punctuation which would be appropriate in a piece of academic writing; the first is more casual and would be acceptable in a less academic context. From your overall description, the second would probably be more appropriate in the context you are using it: "had to be . . . " is perhaps a little over emphatic, but nevertheless sound advice.
 * There are of course many possible styles of punctuation, and also grammar, prose and alternative spellings, some of which are appropriate to different contexts and others of which are broadly equivalent: knowing how and when to use them is an essential skill for any serious writer. Consistency within a piece, within an overall publication, or even within the overall output of a particular publisher, may be considered desirable, hence the concept of House styles. At one time, many major publishers issued booklets to their editors and authors defining their own house style: some of these, such as that of the Oxford University Press, were published generally and for convenience adopted by other publishers or organisations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.102 (talk) 14:13, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * :):) thankyou both. Further answers welcome (even just confirming/ adding more detail to the above), but that seems to cover it pretty well. I am curious if anyone can add to the suggestion about cleft structure - as Rjanag says, it's similar to a pseudocleft sentence, but not the same, since there are not two clauses in my pseudocleft-ish sentence. From googling, a true pseudocleft needs two clauses, whereas this is still one. I suspect it goes "X underlines Y" -> "what underlines Y is X" -> "underlining Y is X". IBE (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Occy Occy Occy! Oi Oi Oi!
Does any one know if the chant and counter chant ''Occy Occy Occy! Oi Oi Oi!'' has anything to do with Lenga d'òc and Langues d'oïl?

For anyone who doesn't know it it goes like this with one side chanting occy and the other oi. Occy Occy Occy! Oi Oi Oi! Occy! Oi! Occy! Oi! Occy Occy Occy! Oi Oi Oi! repeat until bored. thanks in advance.--KTo288 (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * In Britain it's usually rendered not as "Occy" but as "Oggy" or "Oggie." We have an article about the chant at Oggy Oggy Oggy, which suggests a rather different origin. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.166 (talk) 00:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I can personally verify the Devonport connection - my Mum grew up in Plymouth. As I small boy, (mid-1960s) I remember sitting in the stands at the Royal Tournament shouting Oi Oi Oi! at the Devonport Field Gun Team of blessed memory. If you want to see what a REAL sport was like, click here (YouTube clip). Our "Oggy Oggy Oggy" article (linked above) confirms that "Oggy" is RN slang for a Cornish pasty, or more properly a "Tiddy Oggy". I don't think they have pasties in the Languedoc! ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 00:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sadly, a derivation of this with "Aussie" in the obvious place is used by Australian bogans at international events, particularly cricket. Those chanting it think they invented it. That says everything. HiLo48 (talk) 06:46, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, Australia has inherited a useful custom from your British connection - if you don't have a suitable tradition for an occasion, make one up or borrow someone else's! We've been doing it for centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 08:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)