Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 January 8

= January 8 =

Interpreting lyrics
From the well-known song "Well, Did You Evah!":


 * — Have you heard that Mimsy Starr
 * — Oh, what now?
 * — She got pinched in the Astor bar
 * — Sauced again, hey?
 * — She was stoned!


 * 1) Who is Mimsy Starr?
 * 2) I assume from the intonation that "pinched in the Astor bar" is a pun on "pinched in the ass", but the subsequent lines seem to suggest that "pinched" could also mean drunk. Is that right?
 * 3) Does "stoned" mean drunk or, as now would more often be the case, high on some other drug such as cannabis?
 * 4) Does the "Astor bar" refer to Hotel Astor (New York)? 109.151.34.151 (talk) 14:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Stoned can mean either drunk or high, but drunk is the older sense and would be more familiar to a 50s audience. "Sauced" means drunk or under the influence of alcohol ("sauce"), and with some sources giving "stoned" as meaning "very drunk", in this context "stoned" most likely means more drunk than "sauced". (Although there may be an element of double entendre).
 * "Pinched" is probably a play on words; the amount of ambiguity in the lyrics is probably deliberate. It seems that the person who hears it and replies "sauced again" assumes it means drunk, even though it's less clear what the other singer means.  Note that "pinched" can also mean "picked up by the police" for another possibility (see below).
 * Mimsy Starr is probably not a real person (at least there doesn't seem to be any evidence of anyone by that name existing), just a humorous name made up for the song. Mimsy isn't a usual first name, but Google Books gives several results from popular novels and plays of the 40s and 50s (and there was 60s actress Mimsy Farmer). Mimsy is also a slang term for the female pudenda (as are many other girls' names), though with slang it's hard to pin down how old a word is; so there may have been a risque element to this, with her name suggesting Mimsy Starr is a bit of a slut or a prostitute. --Colapeninsula (talk) 15:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * (e/c)I think "Mimsy Starr" is just made up for the purpose - that way, it can rhyme with "bar" and feel like the right sort of name as a satire (I don't think "slut" would be the aim, though). Also I think "Astor bar" is "As[short pause]tor bar", that is to say, it is a play on both meanings. And I'm fairly certain "very drunk" is intended for "stoned"; not sure, though; I think the drugs thing is more recent, and a bar would be a very odd setting for substance abuse (given that the upper-class context and date suggest cannabis is unlikely). Don't know if the Astor bar is real, but if my theory about the play on words is correct, it needn't be. It is just a theory, though. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I definitely think that "Astor bar" = "bar at Hotel Astor (New York)". I agree that "pinched in the Astor bar" plays on the "nipped by the fingers" and "arrested by the cops" senses of pinched. Deor (talk) 17:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I seem to remember the phrasing being "She got pinched in the ass-tor bar" with definite emphasis on "ass". --TammyMoet (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think there is no doubt that the "ass" gag is intentional. The trickier question for me is what the other, non-punning meaning of "pinched" is supposed to be. The suggestion, as you see, is that it means she was arrested (for being drunk?). 86.171.174.159 (talk) 04:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * In many areas of the United States, one can be arrested for public intoxication. I think the "Sauced again, hey?" response implies that the responder is taking pinched in that sense. Deor (talk) 04:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's possible if Ms Starr was behaving in a very disorderly way and there was some sort of fracas. But I wouldn't think the police are routinely called to hotel bars just because some customer gets drunk. 86.171.174.159 (talk) 12:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Since the song was originally written for a Broadway musical, Hotel Astor in New York is the most likely interpretation. (Not that there are many Astor bars in the world.) --Itinerant1 (talk) 21:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Cole Porter was homosexual and was the master of the double entendre - a common way for homosexuals to communicate, and common in the arts at this time as a way for homosexual themes and references to be worked into artworks without being explicit enough to be condemned. The ambiguity of the lyrics is absolutely intentional, for that is how double entendres work; the listener fills in the meaning. So you are both right - "pinched" probably refers to both "pinched in the ass" and arrested by the cops, because the Astor Bar was a well-known place for homosexuals to go to pick each other up. And, of course, since homosexuality was illegal, men seeking to pick up men were frequently in trouble with the cops. 7/29/2012